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  • Reloading w/o a chrono

    I'm trying to get a .308 deer round put together for this season (yes I know I'm starting late) and want to dial in the accuracy. I don't have a range in my backyard so I cant instantly test each round I build. I can probably only go once every other week at most. So is there an effective way to make sure you're getting the most efficient round without a chrono?

  • #2
    What do you mean by efficiant? Reloading doesn't require a chrono it just helps out figuring downrange trajectory.
    "It's another burrito, it's a cold Lone Star in my hand!"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by bottlerocket View Post
      I'm trying to get a .308 deer round put together for this season (yes I know I'm starting late) and want to dial in the accuracy. I don't have a range in my backyard so I cant instantly test each round I build. I can probably only go once every other week at most. So is there an effective way to make sure you're getting the most efficient round without a chrono?
      Of course there is. Velocity is not as important as accuracy. You're only shooting deer. Zero in at your target range, and work up about 5 different loads. If you're using the same projectile, vary the powder, increase it by .25 or .50 grain with each 5 rounds. So 5 at 29.0, 5 at 29.5, 5 at 30.0, 5 at 30.5-- check for overpressure and action function, and fire them at the same target sheet, different areas, so you can compare the groups. You will see them either tighten up, open up, or maintain the same overall accuracy. Pick the highest velocity (most powder) to the tightest group, depending on what you're after. Guys have been using that method for decades.

      Chrono's are excellent for working in extreme long range ballistics, and subsonic rounds. All of which can be achieved with the above method.
      "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
      "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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      • #4
        Originally posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
        Of course there is. Velocity is not as important as accuracy. You're only shooting deer. Zero in at your target range, and work up about 5 different loads. If you're using the same projectile, vary the powder, increase it by .25 or .50 grain with each 5 rounds. So 5 at 29.0, 5 at 29.5, 5 at 30.0, 5 at 30.5-- check for overpressure and action function, and fire them at the same target sheet, different areas, so you can compare the groups. You will see them either tighten up, open up, or maintain the same overall accuracy. Pick the highest velocity (most powder) to the tightest group, depending on what you're after. Guys have been using that method for decades.

        Chrono's are excellent for working in extreme long range ballistics, and subsonic rounds. All of which can be achieved with the above method.
        also it's important to let the barrel cool before each group.
        "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
        "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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        • #5
          I got you all fixed up!












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          If you do not have a chronograph you will not know the es or the sd of your rounds which shooting in close range 500 yards and in won't make a huge difference.
          your main concern as Cj said is grouping at short range. What brand of rifle is this?
          Why not not just buy factory match ammo?
          "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those
          who vote for a living."

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          • #6
            Originally posted by dmdakota View Post
            Why not not just buy factory match ammo?
            Because good handloaded ammo tailored to your gun is better than factory match ammo.
            Originally posted by Broncojohnny
            HOORAY ME and FUCK YOU!

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Nash B. View Post
              Because good handloaded ammo tailored to your gun is better than factory match ammo.

              With out a chronograph to measure what you are doing NO it isn't.
              Why do you think most shooters use Federal gold medal match as a standard?
              you are not tailoring anything by grouping at 100 yards except what it will group at 100 what happens past that? You don't know because you don't know how fast it is moving and the speed difference between your rounds.
              "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those
              who vote for a living."

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              • #8
                Originally posted by dmdakota View Post
                With out a chronograph to measure what you are doing NO it isn't.
                Why do you think most shooters use Federal gold medal match as a standard?
                you are not tailoring anything by grouping at 100 yards except what it will group at 100 what happens past that? You don't know because you don't know how fast it is moving and the speed difference between your rounds.
                Couldn't disagree more. Most shooters don't know what the hell they are doing. If all of your cases have the same amount of powder, it doesn't matter what the fuck your chrono says, it isn't going to change. Keep your chrono, show up to a range with your federal gold match, I'll hand load some ammo, and I guarantee you mine will out shoot it.
                "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by 5.0_CJ View Post
                  Couldn't disagree more. Most shooters don't know what the hell they are doing. If all of your cases have the same amount of powder, it doesn't matter what the fuck your chrono says, it isn't going to change. Keep your chrono, show up to a range with your federal gold match, I'll hand load some ammo, and I guarantee you mine will out shoot it.
                  Dayum, drama in the Armory, lol.
                  04 2.6 KB'd Cobra!

                  Originally posted by Sean88gt
                  There is something about her that just makes my dick completely take over any thought process. If Russell Brand were on top of her, I'd fuck him just to say I pushed a dick inside of her.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by slowyellow View Post
                    Dayum, drama in the Armory, lol.
                    Maybe I went a little hard there, but handloading for accuracy has been around for over 100 years. Chronographs have been around for about 20. They didn't make shooting more accurate. It's nice if you want to predict hold over at longer ranges, but it in no way makes your rounds more accurate.
                    Last edited by CJ; 10-20-2011, 08:35 AM.
                    "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                    "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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                    • #11
                      Yes you did go a little hard I do not shoot factory ammo. I simply stated that you cannot possibly know what the es and sd of your rounds are without a chronograph. You are shooting deer in Texas why the fuck do you need to hand load for that, max shooting distance 300 yards.
                      Cj I do reload all of the ammo I shoot. So you are saying that I can load test with a chrono and you will not use one then we go shoot and see who's ammo groups better? OK but this test will be at 300,500,1000 yards because as you state it makes no difference because it was accurate at 100 it must be good BULLSHIT and you know it. Or maybe you don't know it and that's why we are in this position.
                      "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those
                      who vote for a living."

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by dmdakota View Post
                        Yes you did go a little hard I do not shoot factory ammo. I simply stated that you cannot possibly know what the es and sd of your rounds are without a chronograph. You are shooting deer in Texas why the fuck do you need to hand load for that, max shooting distance 300 yards.
                        Cj I do reload all of the ammo I shoot. So you are saying that I can load test with a chrono and you will not use one then we go shoot and see who's ammo groups better? OK but this test will be at 300,500,1000 yards because as you state it makes no difference because it was accurate at 100 it must be good BULLSHIT and you know it. Or maybe you don't know it and that's why we are in this position.
                        I never stated it made no difference on distance, don't try and create bullshit arguments in an attempt to win them and appear to be the victor. This discussion is about zeroing at a target range. You made a statement not applicable to the discussion, and you've remained on your own self created topic no one else is discussing.

                        And furthermore, just for your own info, since I'm quite aware you don't know this - you can calculate actual velocity by measuring the distance between two impacts and two measured differences, no chronograph required. The chronograph didn't change reloading, it just made it easier for less experienced marksman. To say a chrono is required for anything is not true.

                        Lastly, I think you pretty much prove my point when you stated Federal Gold Match will shoot better than handloads, and then I challenge it and your rebuttal is to compare my hand loads to your hand loads, completely omitting the aforementioned federal gold match. That pretty much ends that discussion.
                        Last edited by CJ; 10-20-2011, 01:12 PM.
                        "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                        "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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                        • #13
                          Won't a load that groups 1 MOA at 100 yards group about the same 1 MOA at 300 yards, just lower?
                          Originally posted by Broncojohnny
                          HOORAY ME and FUCK YOU!

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Nash B. View Post
                            Won't a load that groups 1 MOA at 100 yards group about the same 1 MOA at 300 yards, just lower?
                            Think of accuracy as a conical equation. The further the distance, the further the deviation. If you take two points - say 100 yards and 500 yards, and you measure the actual drop between the two points, you can calculate velocity via a reverse equation. You know the weight of the projectile, you know the force of gravity, and therefore you can calculate actual velocity between the two points and have an accurate representation of anywhere at any range. Think of it as a glorified Pythagorean theorem. That is how marksman in WW2 and Vietnam calculated their loads - they did not have a digital chronograph. A chrono is easier because it tells you right way without a lot of walking and equations. However, it's been argued that the old school way is more accurate because it uses actual variables, taking into account actual weather conditions - such as humidity, temperature, altitude, and even dust in the air. Using a chrono simulates these equations, but it is not based on actual conditions, albeit close.

                            But to answer your question, no they will open up in a conical fashion. My AR-15 shoots all through the same hole at 100 yards, and it shoots about a sub 1/2 MOA at 200 yards, and at 600 yards it groups around 1.5-2" depending on wind, and 1000 yards it groups at 5-10" depending on wind.

                            A chronograph is useful for a few things, none of them are entirely dependent on having a chronograph, because ALL of the data it provides can be calculated with equations. However, it makes life easier to finding sweet spots in powder. Some powders you can increase your charge from lets say 24gr to 26gr, and get a 10% increase in chamber pressures (into the unsafe area) but only gain 50-75fps, which makes it pretty pointless. However, a chronograph itself doesn't make your loads more accurate. As I was stating before if every single one of your rounds has EXACTLY 24.0 grains of powder, that is as consistent as they will ever be, a chronograph will not do anything but tell you what the average deviation of velocity is, and this directly correlates to the group you're shooting. Think of a chronograph as the data, and your group as the line graph of that data.
                            Last edited by CJ; 10-20-2011, 01:22 PM.
                            "When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic." -Benjamin Franklin
                            "A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury." -Alexander Fraser Tytler

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Nash B. View Post
                              Won't a load that groups 1 MOA at 100 yards group about the same 1 MOA at 300 yards, just lower?
                              No.
                              "The problems we face today are there because the people who work for a living are outnumbered by those
                              who vote for a living."

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