Tesla to Texas: How Do You Like Us Now?

[jw33]

Never let it be said that DFWM doesn't believe in arbitrary and capricious government meddling in private enterprise!

pretty sure the ammo/ar15 price gouging threads sorted that out long ago....

[racrguy]

Big advancements are revolutionary not evolutionary and there is not even any talk of theory's concerning revolutionary advancements much less any work being made towards them.




I never said that they were a flash in the pan. I said that they will not do what the proponents of them want them to do because there is no such thing as a free lunch in engineering. They are a distraction from working on other types of technology that will make a bigger impact on the stated goals of the proponents of "green technology". Making a small car that gets the equivalent of 50mpg is not that big of a deal when a car of similar size and a IC engine gets 45mpg. Making a Tahoe or something like it that will get 20mpg around town is a MUCH bigger deal once you crunch the numbers.




My 12% number was losses. There are individual lines that have much lower losses and the figure in the early 80's was 10% but the grid is aging and the latest figure for the system as a whole in the US is touching on 12%.

Jesus fucking christ. More claims when you haven't even validated the first set!

[svauto-erotic855]

Jesus fucking christ. More claims when you haven't even validated the first set!

The condition of the industry and the fact that they have not managed to turn a dimes worth of profit in the past 25 years despite billions of dollars sunk into the effort kind of proves the point that I have been trying to make.

By the way Honda had a prototype car in the late 80's that got 500mpg on gas. Rabbit diesels also got 100mpg in one experiment.

[Ruffdaddy]

The condition of the industry and the fact that they have not managed to turn a dimes worth of profit in the past 25 years despite billions of dollars sunk into the effort kind of proves the point that I have been trying to make.

By the way Honda had a prototype car in the late 80's that got 500mpg on gas. Rabbit diesels also got 100mpg in one experiment.

What industry?

[svauto-erotic855]

What industry?

The electric car industry that has yet to make a profit or sell a single car without a government subsidy propping it up.

I forgot to add that no manufacture has even developed an electric car in the past 20 years without getting matching funds from the government to help pay for the effort or money gotten from private company's that have been forced to cough up the cash as a result of government arm twisting.

Google EV1 CNG, EV1 parallel hybrid or EV1 series hybrid if you want to see what a "Good Electric Car " is.

Also check out this list of cars and see how long manufactures have been trying to sell electric cars. You will notice that some of the production dates are in the 1950's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_production_battery_electric_vehicles

[jw33]

https://www.openchargemap.org/site

https://www.nteaa.org/dfw-chargin-stations

Just poking around it looks like there are about 6200 EV charging locations in the US by this map. No idea how long they have been around or if that number is updated very often. Based on the success of Tesla and the number of other EV that have been sold in the last few years I would say it is a safe bet they were all "built" fairly recently and the number could be slightly low.

Electric motors have not changed dramatically in quite a while. Materials and machining are much better, but the theory behind a A/C induction motor is mostly unchanged. However the drives (what "throttles" the motor and regulates power/RPM) has changed a lot. VFD (Variable-Frequency Drives) have become readily available and are what make everything we use today efficient. IGBT (Insulated gate bipolar transistors) pretty much changed everything and have only been in use since the late 80's for inverters and what make today's VFD so superior of soft starters or anything else.

By far the biggest thing to make EV for today has been the progress of the Lithium battery technology. Just look at the cell phone, tablet/laptop PC, and yes radio controlled hobby industry. None of it would be nearly as successful without the lithium battery. 20 years ago you would never thought about a laptop that could do what even a kids toy can do today. Electric flight was a pipe dream. Today I can buy an LiPo helicopter for less than $200 and the battery packs are $8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery

I'm seriously curious svo what kind of battery did you guys use for your electric car and how were you driving the motor?

[svauto-erotic855]

I'm seriously curious svo what kind of battery did you guys use for your electric car and how were you driving the motor?

It was not you guys; it was just me and I was a teenager. Lead acid wheelchair batteries, 30 of them I think. I used the switching system from the Henney Kilowatt for inspiration but I used modern components and tailored it to the high voltage DC that the motor I had required.

[Ruffdaddy]

It was not you guys; it was just me and I was a teenager. Lead acid wheelchair batteries, 30 of them I think. I used the switching system from the Henney Kilowatt for inspiration but I used modern components and tailored it to the high voltage DC that the motor I had required.

Lol so you're basing all of your "engineering" knowledge off some science experiment using second hand half assed parts? Dude you're a joke...

[svauto-erotic855]

Lol so you're basing all of your "engineering" knowledge off some science experiment using second hand half assed parts? Dude you're a joke...

No, I went to school and became an engineer after I built my "Science Experiment". Most of my biological fathers family work in the automotive industry as engineers and so have I. Detroit is a small place and there are no secrets in the engineering community. I have had the privilege of meeting many people who have worked on or are working on these projects and see the challenges that they face and their thoughts concerning them. I am also a member of the SAE.

At the time my "Half Ass project" worked better then any professionally built electric car that had ever hit the market up to that date and it took Detroit 10 plus years of trying and billions of dollars to build a car that worked better.

There were also no half assed parts. At the time the wheelchair batteries were the most advanced and highest quality lead acid batteries that were being made. Why don't you go and price 30 of them and let me know how much of a dent it would put into your projects budget and then tell me how half assed they are.

[Ruffdaddy]

You say "at the time"...then claim technology hasn't advanced since then. But no one in their right mind would go with lead acids. So which is it?

I use lithiums, both primary and rechargeable, in most of my designs. If I'm trying to save cost I may go with something else but rarely is the cost of the battery a driver. It would be more so shipping restrictions on lithiums.

[svauto-erotic855]

You say "at the time"...then claim technology hasn't advanced since then. But no one in their right mind would go with lead acids. So which is it?

I use lithiums, both primary and rechargeable, in most of my designs. If I'm trying to save cost I may go with something else but rarely is the cost of the battery a driver. It would be more so shipping restrictions on lithiums.

Exactly how old are you? Lead acid was all that there was back then. The cost is always a driver when a set of batteries will run you 7k. The tech in batteries has advanced quite a bit but will have to improve 300 fold to work as well as gasoline and even more if compared to diesel. The problems being faced doesn't hinge on just one item; it hinges on ALL of them and even if they all worked perfectly you sill are facing the issue of where the power to charge the batteries comes from.

Right now electric cars cause more pollution per mile then a comparable car with a normal engine and that is not even factoring in what it took to make them in the first place. EVERY SINGLE engineer in the electric car industry knows this but it is NEVER mentioned. To understand this you need to google "well to wheel analysis" and start reading. Get back to me in a few days and let me know what you think of electrics once you have a little research under your belt.

[svauto-erotic855]

You say "at the time"...then claim technology hasn't advanced since then. But no one in their right mind would go with lead acids. So which is it?

I use lithiums, both primary and rechargeable, in most of my designs. If I'm trying to save cost I may go with something else but rarely is the cost of the battery a driver. It would be more so shipping restrictions on lithiums.

Shipping? You do realize that I am talking about nearly 1400lbs of batteries don't you?

[racrguy]

So now it's a conspiracy? What, exactly, are the pollution numbers by both ICE and EV cars per mile?

[svauto-erotic855]

So now it's a conspiracy?

A conspiracy to waste time and effort maybe. The emissions per mile vary by what part of the country they are in and how the power that feeds them is made.

The problem in this conversation is the there are 2 topics that I am trying to address.

First you have to look at the stated reasons electric cars are even being considered and why. What goals are trying to be accomplished?

Second you have to do an analysis to see if those goals can be reached cheaper and easier with conventional tech without having to try to reinvent the wheel.

Honda was able to reach zero emission in 1995 with a conventional car. It produced cleaner air coming out of the tail pipe then the ambient air in California. CARB flatly refused to certify it as zero emissions even though there was no equipment that could detect what it spit out. CARB spent nearly 100 million coming up with new equipment that could measure the tail pipe emission just so they did not have to say that a car that burned gas was zero emissions.

My position is that electric car work sort of ok as proven by them being driven on the street but they do not accomplish the stated goals; nor do they meet or exceed the performance of conventional cars that cost less then half of what an electric car does. Electric cars can NEVER meet the stated goals as long as we keep getting electricity from burning any type of fuel to make it. If we make a switch to all solar, wind, hydro, or nuclear power they will be able to achieve the stated goals for making them. It is EXTREMELY unlikely that we will ever get even 1/3 of our power from wind or solar and it appears that we do not have the political will to try for more Hydro or nuclear power. Because of that I say that electric cars are a waste of time and effort that could produce better results if directed elsewhere.

[Ruffdaddy]

Read and comprehend what we are saying. You are exactly one of those religious type people, except on the other side of the fence against EVs.

Here is why you're an idiot.
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First I start with this:

Electric motors are much more efficient, electricity is recoverable under braking, electricity doesn't have to be a burned fuel. There are a lot of reasons electricity CAN be green.

My back ground is automotive engineering and I say that you are beyond brain dead if you believe any of the crap that you just posted.

Now focus here...and think about what I originally said. All of that shit is 100% true. Electric motors are much more efficient.

Regenerative braking does work, and it typically uses the same fucking motor as a generator to charge the batteries. It's not this huge cumbersome system like you would have people believe.

And if you don't realize that electricity can be made by more than just burning fuel...you're a lost cause. Solar, Nuclear, Wind, Hydro...loads of way to make energy.
-------------------------------------------------------------
Then we have this...

I never once said that they wouldn't work; I see them being driven on a daily basis and have built one and drove it myself. What more evidence of them working could I ask for?

What I actually said about them if you pulled your head out of your ass and put a little effort into your reading comprehension skills is that they will not cause less pollution or conserve power like the watermelons (green on the outside and red on the inside) would have you believe. That you believe it shows how little you know and how gullible you are.

It's not about the NOW, its about setting up the infrastructure to have the ability to run EVs free of fossil fuels eventually. Nothing in engineering was ever immediate, and by your thought process we would never have a civilized world because everything is a waste of time patch job and not true development.

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I'll quote myself again to bring up this point. The importance of electric cars is to set up an infrastructure that allows for multiple different types energy generation, but a common method of energy storage. Just like currency.

These cars are designed for city folk frost, not for the outliers.

And you guys must not understand what new development means. Batteries have progressed and continue to. Sure they're not some new random element, but that doesn't mean it's not new tech. I have designed battery powered stuff ranging from downhole tools to ground vehicle defense systems and the technology seems to be continuously evolving. Maybe primary lithium batteries aren't changing much but new stuff is always coming out in both the performance and safety arenas.

Think of electricity as the currency of energy. The benefit of electricity is that it can be generated a multitude of ways but used for the same purpose as petrol. It lowers our dependence on oil and gas. And svo855 is flat out wrong about regenerative braking. They are efficient enough to be effective, and they do not add appreciable weight. Actually he's wrong about most of what he's saying.

An electrical system has much more potential in the way of efficiency than petrol based. EVs aren't for everyone, but as they continue to develop they will become more useful.

Now focus on exactly what I'm saying and tell me again how that's wrong.

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Big advancements are revolutionary not evolutionary and there is not even any talk of theory's concerning revolutionary advancements much less any work being made towards them.




I never said that they were a flash in the pan. I said that they will not do what the proponents of them want them to do because there is no such thing as a free lunch in engineering. They are a distraction from working on other types of technology that will make a bigger impact on the stated goals of the proponents of "green technology". Making a small car that gets the equivalent of 50mpg is not that big of a deal when a car of similar size and a IC engine gets 45mpg. Making a Tahoe or something like it that will get 20mpg around town is a MUCH bigger deal once you crunch the numbers.




My 12% number was losses. There are individual lines that have much lower losses and the figure in the early 80's was 10% but the grid is aging and the latest figure for the system as a whole in the US is touching on 12%.

You are still wrong here...it's less than 12%.

Exactly how old are you? Lead acid was all that there was back then. The cost is always a driver when a set of batteries will run you 7k. The tech in batteries has advanced quite a bit but will have to improve 300 fold to work as well as gasoline and even more if compared to diesel. The problems being faced doesn't hinge on just one item; it hinges on ALL of them and even if they all worked perfectly you sill are facing the issue of where the power to charge the batteries comes from.

Right now electric cars cause more pollution per mile then a comparable car with a normal engine and that is not even factoring in what it took to make them in the first place. EVERY SINGLE engineer in the electric car industry knows this but it is NEVER mentioned. To understand this you need to google "well to wheel analysis" and start reading. Get back to me in a few days and let me know what you think of electrics once you have a little research under your belt.

this is where you really show your inability to comprehend what we're saying. I'm bringing up the fact that you're claiming to have all of this knowledge and experience, but you used technology that isn't even relevant to modern EVs. Both the batteries and motors aren't even close to what is used today. You did a science experiment on a very simplified representation of an EV system.

Everyone knows electricity is generated largely by fossil fuels. But that doesn't mean it will always be that way. This is how advancement works. You have to set up the infrastructure. The goals are to phase out the reliance on fossil fuels

Shipping? You do realize that I am talking about nearly 1400lbs of batteries don't you?

I brought this up to indicate the main reason I would deviate from a Lithium or LiIon System in my current role.