Uncle Ted meets bummers goons

[talisman]

Yes, there is that freedom. You have the freedom to overthrow any tyrannous government by force or vote. Jefferson said that. However, you do not have the right to ignore the country's call to war. If you do, then you should be arrested and exiled.

Jefferson also said I have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. All three of which fall by the wayside if I'm drafted. Wouldn't you say that forcing men to fight an UNDECLARED war is in every conceivable way tyrannous?

[Forever_frost]

Jefferson also said I have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. All three of which fall by the wayside if I'm drafted. Wouldn't you say that forcing men to fight an UNDECLARED war is in every conceivable way tyrannous?

Yes I actually do. So you have the right to remove that government, not to duck a draft.

[Forever_frost]

So how was our freedom at stake with Vietnam?

So how was our freedom at stake with Afghanistan?

So how was our freedom at stake with Iraq?

More specifically, why were our infantry's lives put at risk in these countries unnecessarily by putting them on the ground with with ridiculous ROE's and NO plan on ever actually winning?

As a wounded soldier yourself, I would think these are questions you would like to have answered.

Again, ROEs are ridiculous and unnecessary. Pretty much the only thing they should say is "Come home alive." Iraq had yellow cake uranium and cyanide salts which could be used against us and have been used against Saddam's own people. Afghanistan? We thought Laden was there. That was purely vendetta.

Vietnam? Should have burned the place to the ground and carpet bombed the entire country to the ground. Just in case it's missed: You have a right to refuse a call to service. Just realize that means you forfeit your right to live here. Accept exile or change out the government. Either way, you are going to bleed. Don't like drafts? Then vote. If voting doesn't get you the desired results, remove them by force. But do not be a passive aggressive pussy and burn a draft card and think you're doing anything but sending someone else in your place.

[talisman]

Yes I actually do. So you have the right to remove that government, not to duck a draft.

Ni66a what?! If that were true we couldn't have overthrown the redcoats because we'd all have told King George "Well, I wanted to revolt, but damn it, you're telling me I have to fight on the other side."

[Forever_frost]

Ni66a what?! If that were true we couldn't have overthrown the redcoats because we'd all have told King George "Well, I wanted to revolt, but damn it, you're telling me I have to fight on the other side."

Actually, had we done what you believe effects change, we'd have never fought the American REvolution and just sent in our draft cards. Oh wait, those who refused to fight for the King were executed. Seems George didn't like cowards either. Pretty sure Washington wasn't pleased by it either.


It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Alexander Hamilton, May 2, 1783

[Vertnut]

Ted's famous "draft-dodging" story was just that... a story he made up for an interview he did in '77. His records show a medical and educational deferment.

[sc281]

Ni66a what?! If that were true we couldn't have overthrown the redcoats because we'd all have told King George "Well, I wanted to revolt, but damn it, you're telling me I have to fight on the other side."

You should have fought for the redcoats and voted for the new government after they all were hanged, duh!

[talisman]

Again, ROEs are ridiculous and unnecessary. Pretty much the only thing they should say is "Come home alive." Iraq had yellow cake uranium and cyanide salts which could be used against us and have been used against Saddam's own people. Afghanistan? We thought Laden was there. That was purely vendetta.

Vietnam? Should have burned the place to the ground and carpet bombed the entire country to the ground. Just in case it's missed: You have a right to refuse a call to service. Just realize that means you forfeit your right to live here. Accept exile or change out the government. Either way, you are going to bleed. Don't like drafts? Then vote. If voting doesn't get you the desired results, remove them by force. But do not be a passive aggressive pussy and burn a draft card and think you're doing anything but sending someone else in your place.

There wasn't anything at all passive aggressive about the 60s man. We were the closest to civil war/revolution then we had been since 1865. As a country, we achieved our ends without directly over throwing the government. Was that good? Looking around today I honestly can't say, but it worked at the time. We then convinced the powers that be we were so right that they gave amnesty to everyone who had resisted. I honestly don't see how you aren't connecting these dots. Everything may not have worked in an ideal fashion, but the country pulled the result it wanted out of our kicking and screaming government. A fat lot of good VOTING would have done there. Seeing everything in terms of "duty" is not a good approach to this scenario, nor is trying to assume that our government gives two shits about anything other than getting reelected.

[talisman]

Actually, had we done what you believe effects change, we'd have never fought the American REvolution and just sent in our draft cards. Oh wait, those who refused to fight for the King were executed. Seems George didn't like cowards either. Pretty sure Washington wasn't pleased by it either.


It may be laid down as a primary position, and the basis of our system, that every Citizen who enjoys the protection of a free Government, owes not only a proportion of his property, but even his personal services to the defence of it, and consequently that the Citizens of America (with a few legal and official exceptions) from 18 to 50 Years of Age should be borne on the Militia Rolls, provided with uniform Arms, and so far accustomed to the use of them, that the Total strength of the Country might be called forth at a Short Notice on any very interesting Emergency.

GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Alexander Hamilton, May 2, 1783

Constricting yourself to only one method of fighting a revolution is an excellent way to ensure failure.

[Forever_frost]

There wasn't anything at all passive aggressive about the 60s man. We were the closest to civil war/revolution then we had been since 1865. As a country, we achieved our ends without directly over throwing the government. Was that good? Looking around today I honestly can't say, but it worked at the time. We then convinced the powers that be we were so right that they gave amnesty to everyone who had resisted. I honestly don't see how you aren't connecting these dots. Everything may not have worked in an ideal fashion, but the country pulled the result it wanted out of our kicking and screaming government. A fat lot of good VOTING would have done there. Seeing everything in terms of "duty" is not a good approach to this scenario, nor is trying to assume that our government gives two shits about anything other than getting reelected.

Right because that actually did anything. If burning those cards did dick, then we'd not have been in any wars similar to that one. Oh wait.. As it has always been you have two choices, and Jefferson and our founders, hell our very Constitution and Declaration of Independence agree with me. If you do not like what our leaders do, disagree with their decisions, you can either A) vote them out or B) remove them by force. You do NOT have the right to abandon a call to service because you don't agree with the action. Either remove the bad actors by vote or by force.

Either way, and again, the Founders speak clearly about this: You're going to bleed. And you should. You only value something if you bleed for it. If you sacrifice for it.

[Forever_frost]

Constricting yourself to only one method of fighting a revolution is an excellent way to ensure failure.

I didn't say one way. I said vote or form a revolution. Your choice.

[Forever_frost]

A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed.
John F. Kennedy


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the

Tranquility of servitude better than the

Animating contest of freedom, go home from

us in peace. We ask not your counsels or

arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which

feed you. May your chains set lightly upon

you, and may posterity forget that ye were

our countrymen."

~ Samuel Adams, speech at the

Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776

[sc281]

Right because that actually did anything. If burning those cards did dick, then we'd not have been in any wars similar to that one. Oh wait.. As it has always been you have two choices, and Jefferson and our founders, hell our very Constitution and Declaration of Independence agree with me. If you do not like what our leaders do, disagree with their decisions, you can either A) vote them out or B) remove them by force. You do NOT have the right to abandon a call to service because you don't agree with the action. Either remove the bad actors by vote or by force.

Either way, and again, the Founders speak clearly about this: You're going to bleed. And you should. You only value something if you bleed for it. If you sacrifice for it.

Hey buddy, remind me again, wasn't the Continental Army in the Revolution a volunteer army? Wasn't their militia also a volunteer militia?

Yes, they were.


No "draft cards" to burn, Sir.

[sc281]

A young man who does not have what it takes to perform military service is not likely to have what it takes to make a living. Today's military rejects include tomorrow's hard-core unemployed.
John F. Kennedy


"If ye love wealth better than liberty, the

Tranquility of servitude better than the

Animating contest of freedom, go home from

us in peace. We ask not your counsels or

arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which

feed you. May your chains set lightly upon

you, and may posterity forget that ye were

our countrymen."

~ Samuel Adams, speech at the

Philadelphia State House, August 1, 1776

Again, you speak of Liberty, yet you did not say HOW our liberty was threatened in any of the wars I mentioned. A bunch of "might" and "thought", but no direct threat to our sovereignty of liberty. Tell me what Tyranny was being forced upon us by these countries.

Going to war in defense of American liberty is every citizen's duty, and if another hitler tries to invade our soil, I expect every man, woman, and child able to hold a rifle to be fighting for their freedom. Going to war to police a world who doesn't want to be helped, and is not our soil, is not our duty.

This is the crux of Tali's and my argmuent, and you aren't getting it.

[matts5.0]

frost. man, you are not making very valid points. you dont like draft dodgers. ok cool.