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Old 05-09-2016, 10:18 AM   #1
davbrucas
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Default Would it have been better for the world had Germany won WWI?

http://www.dancarlin.com/hardcore-history-series/

I've been listening to the alternate history stories in the link above.
He floats the idea that had Germany won early into the war, it might have been better for civilization overall.


Think about it.
Had the French and British not rallied for the Battle of the Marne and stopped the German advance (which some say was a fluke), The German sledgehammer falls on Paris. France surrenders, Britain Surrenders, German troops go to the Ostfront and Russia surrenders.

The unrestricted submarine warfare never happens. The trench warfare doesn't claim millions of lives.

No poison gas. Possibly No Russian Revolution.

Hitler is never fundamentally transformed. Stalin doesn't come to power.

Maybe Germany expands its territory some, but I doubt we see a completely conquered Europe. Just a land shuffle like all the other wars.

No harsh reparations on Germany. No depression. No WW2.

Generations of men aren't wiped out.

None of this...
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1462810711.288694.jpg
ImageUploadedByTapatalk1462810725.274026.jpg

Forests aren't turned to splinters.

The Middle East is still under Ottoman control, so maybe the tribalism doesn't turn the region into such a hotbed.

The changes are endless.

So what do you think? Would a quick German victory have been preferable to the reality we know of a prolonged Allied victory?
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:21 AM   #2
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Haven't put much thought into this, but I'll start by saying Dan Carlin is awesome and the Hardcore History podcast is fucking incredible.

I have about 20 hours of driving ahead of me this week. I need to go download this one. Was this in the Blueprint For Armageddon series?
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:30 AM   #3
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That's a pretty interesting thought. I suspect Europe would have been in turmoil for decades afterwards. I don't see the British populace submitting to the Germans for very long or most of Europe really. It would have created a huge global power vacuum for sure. Maybe the Ottoman Empire would have grown to take over most of Europe or moved into Russia.

That's a pretty neat alternate reality.

Hardcore History Podcast noted for future.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:36 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Strychnine View Post
Haven't put much thought into this, but I'll start by saying Dan Carlin is awesome and the Hardcore History podcast is fucking incredible.

I have about 20 hours of driving ahead of me this week. I need to go download this one. Was this in the Blueprint For Armageddon series?

Yessir. It's awesome.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:45 AM   #5
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Maybe it keeps the United States out of becoming an interventionist, Imperial imitation. Conceivably prevents the conditions necessary for Bolshevist takeover over of Russia. Spares the destruction of European order and the roughly 100 years of political stability among the major European powers, save the Frano-Prussian War. Preserves the legitimacy of authoritarian rule in several of the major European powers.

It doesn't preclude potential major war outbreaks amongst the major powers in future scenarios though. Depending on your particular polutical worldview, you may view the potential of this altered geopolitical hypothetical as more or less favorable. Those who think European institutions of power over the world were inherently evil and repressive will be unlikely to see it as a positive. Those who think the collapse of Western power created tremendous instability that exceeded the theoretical positives of independence for colonized nations will be inclined to disagree.

If one looks at it purely from the Western-centric POV, I think the answer is that it almost certainly would have benefited the Western world to either not have engaged in the conflict at all or not have had it end in the de facto unconditional defeat of Germany that it did.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:56 AM   #6
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This also could have made Trump non-existent.
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Old 05-09-2016, 10:59 AM   #7
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This also could have made Trump non-existent.

Yup. And on that note, we may have never existed. Every detail matters in history.
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:06 AM   #8
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check out his Ghosts of the ostfront series. It's the shit.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Strychnine View Post
Haven't put much thought into this, but I'll start by saying Dan Carlin is awesome and the Hardcore History podcast is fucking incredible.

I have about 20 hours of driving ahead of me this week. I need to go download this one. Was this in the Blueprint For Armageddon series?
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Old 05-09-2016, 11:12 AM   #9
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Today being Russian's Victory Day there has been a lot of news on our only English station.

fun fact.
540,000 US soldiers died
580,000 Britt soldiers died
27,000,000 Russian soldiers died

74% of Germans died in the Russian front.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:03 PM   #10
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The US would not be the economic powerhouse it is today without the european economy in shambles after two world wars.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:03 PM   #11
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And of course English would not be so readily the world's unifying language as it has become.
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Old 05-09-2016, 01:48 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by KBScobravert View Post
74% of Germans died in the Russian front.

My grand dad told me that not a single man that he knew at the beginning of the war survived the Eastern Front and made it home. Of course that is anecdotal since there is no possible way for him to have know everyone in the entire Wehrmacht but it still sounded pretty damn bad when he told me that.
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:20 PM   #13
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We'd find another way to f things up or someone would...etc. Could it also be argued that the a-bomb/nuclear warfare progress would have been slower too?
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Old 05-09-2016, 02:44 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by ceyko View Post
We'd find another way to f things up or someone would...etc. Could it also be argued that the a-bomb/nuclear warfare progress would have been slower too?
Possibly...all the European scientists that fled Nazi Germany to the US would not have happened.
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Old 05-09-2016, 03:05 PM   #15
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I have complete faith that even without the Germans the Japanese would have started one hell of a war with the U.S. at some point.
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Old 05-09-2016, 07:52 PM   #16
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I have complete faith that even without the Germans the Japanese would have started one hell of a war with the U.S. at some point.
Agreed. The outcome would have been the same, however.
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Old 05-09-2016, 08:30 PM   #17
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In the interest of the planet, do you not think the great wars may have delayed the rate at which we are destroying the planet? Not talking about greenhouse stuff, I am talking about water supplies, fish, and other things needed to sustain life. People keep breeding like they are and it won't be long before there are issues.
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:32 PM   #18
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Assuming my SD card has enough space, I'll start on all 6 hours of "Blueprint for Armageddon" tomorrow morning. Looking forward to it.
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Old 05-09-2016, 09:53 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingjason View Post
In the interest of the planet, do you not think the great wars may have delayed the rate at which we are destroying the planet? Not talking about greenhouse stuff, I am talking about water supplies, fish, and other things needed to sustain life. People keep breeding like they are and it won't be long before there are issues.
It's a weird thing to contemplate. Mathematically, just looking at trend-lines, yeah we'd probably have more people without global wars.
There are some arguments that wars actually help increase the population though. In times of conflict there are a large number of deaths, but in the post-war periods there were usually larger growth numbers - whether because children were assets (farming, etc) or because of prosperity (more jobs).

But at the same time without WWII the US would have probably struggled to recover from the great depression for even longer.


Back to WWI, same thing. It's pretty hard to determine which way it would have gone.

Niall Ferguson, 'The Pity of war'
Quote:
The demographic reality was that the dead (though not always their skills) were quite quickly replaced. Fewer British men were killed during the war than had emigrated in the decade before it.
Although the German birth rate had fallen sharply since 1902(from above 35 per thousand to a nadir of 14 per thousand in 1917), there was no shortage of young men in the immediate post-war period; rather the reverse. As a percentage of the population as a whole, men aged between 15 and 45 rose from 22.8 in 1910 to 23.5 per cent in 1925.
In England and Wales the number of men aged between 15 and 24 was also higher in 1921 than it had been in 1911; as a proportion of the total population it fell only slightly (from 18.2 to 17.6 per cent).
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Old 05-10-2016, 05:31 AM   #20
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Assuming my SD card has enough space, I'll start on all 6 hours of "Blueprint for Armageddon" tomorrow morning. Looking forward to it.
Blueprint for Armageddon is like 18 hours long if I remember correctly. You mean all 6 episodes?

Last edited by sc281; 05-10-2016 at 05:38 AM.
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