So here's a question for the believers...

[BlackSnake]

Touch'e. I can appreciate your well educated posts. I wish I could articulate my thoughts the way you can. Prolly too smart to rely on faith.

Edit: Hope you took no offence to that statement. I wasnt trying to be a smart ass.

[Maddhattter]

Lol. Its a poor analogy I agree, but damn! Its more food for thought than gosple.

I agree. While I appreciate people not spouting off bible quotes to defend their religion, a poor analogy is not much better.

Its kind of like, I have bread and you dont. If there is no bread tomorrow, I will eat and you will starve. I must ask...Do you now feel the threat of starving? I should hope not.

If the only reason I wanted your bread was because I would starve, then I do not want bread because I should, because food is required for me to live, it's because I fear the alternative, starving and death. So, it is an implication of theistic thuggery to imply that a god would take any acts as genuine that are done in an attempt to avoid punishment.

But it might remind you that you may need a loaf. If you are a bread eater that is...

The problem here, in regards to the bread analogy as an alternative explanation of Pascal's wager, is that you think that you have bread and that if I don't have bread I can only have nothing. While, to turn this into a proper analogy, there would be an infinite number of other foodstuffs that have the same demonstrable results, but all of it is poisoned except, possibly, one and there is no way to know which one isn't poisoned.

The theist, would be grabbing the bread, without knowing if it's poisoned or not and devouring it assured that it is not poisoned and denying that any other foodstuff is even an option.

The atheist is not eating anything because there is no way to tell which one is poisoned.

[BlackSnake]

Pascal's Wager? Really?

Sorry, but if your god doesn't exist, you wasted your entire life either pissing off some other god/gods or suffering from a manageable form of schizophrenia.

The problem with Pascal's reasoning, is the assumption that christianity and atheism is a true dichotomy, i.e. the only two options. Unfortunately for those who think this is a valid line of reasoning, they are not. By hedging your bets on any one god, you are risking the "hell"s of every other concept, discrediting the idea that if you're wrong you lose nothing.

Pascal's Wager isn't even a good justification. As it's implying that a good reason to believe is because that god is thug. That god apparently thinks that someone trying to avoid the threat of eternal suffering is genuine in it's worship and praise. Which is akin to the idea that information retrieved via torture is accurate due to the prisoner fearing the torture, when they will likely say anything to avoid the torture, true or not.

And, as a final note, I personally wouldn't refer to Pascal's wager as "age old" as the works of Shakespeare are older than it is.

Lol. Its a poor analogy I agree, but damn! Its more food for thought than gosple.

Its kind of like, I have bread and you dont. If there is no bread tomorrow, I will eat and you will starve. I must ask...Do you now feel the threat of starving? I should hope not. But it might remind you that you may need a loaf. If you are a bread eater that is...

[Maddhattter]

The age old saying goes, "If I am wrong and you are right, what have I lost - nothing, and what have you gained - nothing. But if I am right and you are wrong, what have I gained - everything, and what have you lost - everything."

Pascal's Wager? Really?

Sorry, but if your god doesn't exist, you wasted your entire life either pissing off some other god/gods or suffering from a manageable form of schizophrenia.

The problem with Pascal's reasoning, is the assumption that christianity and atheism is a true dichotomy, i.e. the only two options. Unfortunately for those who think this is a valid line of reasoning, they are not. By hedging your bets on any one god, you are risking the "hell"s of every other concept, discrediting the idea that if you're wrong you lose nothing.

Pascal's Wager isn't even a good justification. As it's implying that a good reason to believe is because that god is thug. That god apparently thinks that someone trying to avoid the threat of eternal suffering is genuine in it's worship and praise. Which is akin to the idea that information retrieved via torture is accurate due to the prisoner fearing the torture, when they will likely say anything to avoid the torture, true or not.

And, as a final note, I personally wouldn't refer to Pascal's wager as "age old" as the works of Shakespeare are older than it is.

[BlackSnake]

The age old saying goes, "If I am wrong and you are right, what have I lost - nothing, and what have you gained - nothing. But if I am right and you are wrong, what have I gained - everything, and what have you lost - everything."

[SMEGMA STENCH]

No, not at all. Hinduism is actually the way to go. Wait... for someone like you, probably that african tribal religion where they eat their dead. That one is more along your thought process.

[racrguy]

The only reason you don't like him is because for some reason, you're only capable of seeing things from a human being's perspective. Look at it from Emperor Palpatine's perspective. If he kills 3 billion people, eh, no big deal. While a human being would see this as horrific, Emperor Palpatine would see this is simply moving 3 billion people around. To him, there is no such thing as what we would call "death". I only use that analogy because in the past you seemed to think he was awful because of the way he has treated man. But you have to look at it from more than just one perspective if you ever want to have a hope of understanding it. Because rest assured Emperor Palpatine see's all perspectives not just yours. Or his.

Also you say you don't like the whole "Darth Vader" idea. Well again if you look at it objectively, there are quite a few things about it that do add up. Now, with Darth Vader having lived and died, no one can ever say that Emperor Palpatine has not seen what it's like to walk a mile in our shoes. And, even though Emperor Palpatine can understand what we go through without having to actually do it, (unlike so many of us) it was the right thing to do. After all, how can you ever really hold someone to some kind of standard, that you yourself never had to live? Not just hold yourself to that standard, but really LIVE and die the standard? You couldn't. So expecting his apprentice to do it was the "right thing to do". And Emperor Palpatine will always, always, always, do the right thing. Whether or not some would deem it necessary. Now obviously that is not the entirety of that whole scenario, not by a long shot. But looking at it that way helped me along when I too had some problems with all that.

o'rly?

[Jester]

Jester, I think its plum groovy that you have found Jesus and the peace that he gives. You are now in the position from the other side wishing there was something great that you could say to convince others. All you can do is give your testimony and hope that someone will get it. But with yours, mine and some others, tomorrow will bring up the testimonies that we have layed before them and bring life yet to another. Congrats brother.

Thanks, man. Yeah, it is really friggin weird being on this side now. I dont begin to act like I understand any of it, I am just different. I don't look down on people for not believing or judge anybody different. Now, if I am asked, I just tell them how I feel and leave it at that. I think pushing people towards God is doing the exact opposite. That is why I always got along so well with Denny and Danny. Big time believers, but do not pressure you or make you feel bad about what you believe. that is the way it should be

[BlackSnake]

Jester, I think its plum groovy that you have found Jesus and the peace that he gives. You are now in the position from the other side wishing there was something great that you could say to convince others. All you can do is give your testimony and hope that someone will get it. But with yours, mine and some others, tomorrow will bring up the testimonies that we have layed before them and bring life yet to another. Congrats brother.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

Let's take it one step further, and say the person in question believes Jesus is his savior, but doesn't like the necessity of the whole setup, and thinks God's a dick all the same for it. Can you hate god, accept his plan, and still get into heaven?

The only reason you don't like him is because for some reason, you're only capable of seeing things from a human being's perspective. Look at it from God's perspective. If he kills 3 billion people, eh, no big deal. While a human being would see this as horrific, God would see this is simply moving 3 billion people around. To him, there is no such thing as what we would call "death". I only use that analogy because in the past you seemed to think he was awful because of the way he has treated man. But you have to look at it from more than just one perspective if you ever want to have a hope of understanding it. Because rest assured God see's all perspectives not just yours. Or his.

Also you say you don't like the whole "Christ" idea. Well again if you look at it objectively, there are quite a few things about it that do add up. Now, with Jesus Christ having lived and died, no one can ever say that God has not walked a mile in our shoes. And, even though God can understand what we go through without having to actually do it, (unlike so many of us) it was the right thing to do. After all, how can you ever really hold someone to some kind of standard, that you yourself never had to live? Not just hold yourself to that standard, but really LIVE and die the standard? You couldn't. So sending his son was the "right thing to do". And God will always, always, always, do the right thing. Whether or not some would deem it necessary. Now obviously that is not the entirety of that whole scenario, not by a long shot. But looking at it that way helped me along when I too had some problems with all that.

[Jester]

lol, knew you guys would run with that one!

[VaderTT]

exactly. it's pretty crazy isn't it?

lol, you said it!

exactly. it's pretty crazy isn't it?

Not gonna do it...

[racrguy]

exactly. it's pretty crazy isn't it?

Yes. It is.

[Jester]

Jester thank you for your input about how you feel I did too hit rock bottom and Jesus pulled me up ,I feel like im born again in spirit,all it takes is put Jesus above all .I also used to have doubts,But there is no explanation about how i feel now compared to my past.

exactly. it's pretty crazy isn't it?