I cannot believe I'm about to spend $900 on optics

[ceyko]

Wait...hang on....I want to talk shit. I'll hit 300 yard targets with iron sights. Oh ya!

Bunch of wussies act like hitting a 500 yard target with 50K optics is hard when grunts hit less at more.

Now, at my old age I may need to get my optics (read: glasses) tuned in (read: zeroed).

[03trubluGT]

I'm only recently learning this shit too, you old flat earther! I'm going to take you to tac pro for 1000 yards. Then you can make me feel like shit with your Cadillac glass.

It's fukking on like Donkey Kong!! I can't wait for some nice range weather!

[CJ]

Allright dammit, just go buy a scope so we can go shooting!

I'm only recently learning this shit too, you old flat earther! I'm going to take you to tac pro for 1000 yards. Then you can make me feel like shit with your Cadillac glass.

[03trubluGT]

Allright dammit, just go buy a scope so we can go shooting!

[CJ]

When you pick up a scope, the first thing you do is look through it, put the reticle on a target, and get a sight picture. In variable-magnification scopes, there are two types of reticles: first focal-plane (FFP) and second focal-plane (SFP). Most shooters are used to SFP reticles that appear to stay the "same size" as the magnification is turned up and down. Paradoxically, this means that at different magnification settings, the reticle features demarcate different angular distances. For example, if the mil-dots are calibrated at 10x, then at 5x, they would actually mark 2 mils. Confusing? It sure is, and that leads us to the solution: the first focal-plane reticle. The FFP reticle appears to "shrink" as the magnification is dialed down, just as the actual target image shrinks. This constant ratio means that the reticle features are always calibrated; 1 mil is always 1 mil regardless of scope power. The shooter can use the reticle for range estimation, elevation hold-over, and windage hold-off at any magnification setting. The downside of the FFP configuration is that the reticle lines can be too fine at low magnification and too thick at high magnification.

Reticle choice can be a matter of personal preference, but the reticle needs to provide an uncluttered sight picture and not obscure the target. Since the reticle may be used solely, or in conjunction with the elevation and windage knobs, to specify range hold-over and wind correction, it should have marks at regular intervals. These demarcations often take the form of mil-dots or hash marks. Since both the reticle and the elevation and windage knobs specify angular distances, it is important that the "units" match. If the reticle has mil-dots or mil hashes, then the knobs should use 0.1-mil clicks. If the reticle has MOA-based demarcations, then the knobs should use 0.25 or 0.50 MOA clicks. When the units match, there is no math required to convert between using one or the other, and aiming corrections can be done with either the reticle, the knobs, or a combination. The reticle marks used for elevation and windage hold-off should be close enough to provide useful intervals, but not so close as to cover parts of the target. For windage and elevation, marks at 1/2 mil or 2 MOA work well.


http://demigodllc.com/articles/intro...-rifle-scopes/

The whole "too thin, too thick" argument is a good ole boy myth, maybe in early scopes. Take a look above, does it look too thin or thick? I don't think so.

[03trubluGT]

When you pick up a scope, the first thing you do is look through it, put the reticle on a target, and get a sight picture. In variable-magnification scopes, there are two types of reticles: first focal-plane (FFP) and second focal-plane (SFP). Most shooters are used to SFP reticles that appear to stay the "same size" as the magnification is turned up and down. Paradoxically, this means that at different magnification settings, the reticle features demarcate different angular distances. For example, if the mil-dots are calibrated at 10x, then at 5x, they would actually mark 2 mils. Confusing? It sure is, and that leads us to the solution: the first focal-plane reticle. The FFP reticle appears to "shrink" as the magnification is dialed down, just as the actual target image shrinks. This constant ratio means that the reticle features are always calibrated; 1 mil is always 1 mil regardless of scope power. The shooter can use the reticle for range estimation, elevation hold-over, and windage hold-off at any magnification setting. The downside of the FFP configuration is that the reticle lines can be too fine at low magnification and too thick at high magnification.

Reticle choice can be a matter of personal preference, but the reticle needs to provide an uncluttered sight picture and not obscure the target. Since the reticle may be used solely, or in conjunction with the elevation and windage knobs, to specify range hold-over and wind correction, it should have marks at regular intervals. These demarcations often take the form of mil-dots or hash marks. Since both the reticle and the elevation and windage knobs specify angular distances, it is important that the "units" match. If the reticle has mil-dots or mil hashes, then the knobs should use 0.1-mil clicks. If the reticle has MOA-based demarcations, then the knobs should use 0.25 or 0.50 MOA clicks. When the units match, there is no math required to convert between using one or the other, and aiming corrections can be done with either the reticle, the knobs, or a combination. The reticle marks used for elevation and windage hold-off should be close enough to provide useful intervals, but not so close as to cover parts of the target. For windage and elevation, marks at 1/2 mil or 2 MOA work well.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/intro-long-range-rifle-scopes/

[CJ]

If you zoom in and the reticle zooms as well, that means the markings increase in size and cover more of the target, right??

They are etched in a way that they do not have any real growth that would impede visibility. FFP is the most desirable right now, it carrys a high premium as well. For quick Target shooting and competition FFP has a distinct advantage with variable power scopes. NF just released their first about 2 years ago at the request of the special forces. Correct me if im wrong but FFP has only recently grown in popularity, the only manufacturers that originally offered it were high end European glass like swarovski and hensoldt. FFP is also considerably more durable compared to SFP.

[03trubluGT]

If you zoom in and the reticle zooms as well, that means the markings increase in size and cover more of the target, right??

[03trubluGT]

I just pulled mine out of the safe, and the reticle does not zoom.

When I bought mine, it was desirable to NOT have the reticle zoom with the magnification. It's kind of like clothing styles. They come in, and go out.

[CJ]

It's been a loooooong time since I shopped for glass, or did any serious long range shooting, but I was under the impression that you don't want your zoom to vary with your reticle when zooming.

You want them to zoom at the exact power that is relative to distance, or some shit like that.

I really like the reticle on the NightForce (NP-1 RR) because you put it at a set power, and put figure out what circle fits the head of the subject you are trying to snipe (well, it's sold as the size of a prairie dog, but coincidentally, the size of the average prairie dog is the same as an adult human head from top to bottom - 9"). You then take the range of the subject and use the corresponding holdover.

That's correct, you want your reticle to zoom with your magnification. In order to have accurate subtensions at any magnification, you must have a FFP scope. If you do not, when you zoom in all the hash marks will be wrong, unless you have a ballistics card accurate to the exact magnification you happen to be at. I believe yours is not a FFP, take a look through it and zoom it in, see if the reticle stays the same size, or if it grows as you zoom.


first focal plane:

[03trubluGT]

Dang Matt, I think I need a bigger pic....LOL

I had no idea it was that big when I linked it, LOL!

[bronco71]

Dang Matt, I think I need a bigger pic....LOL

[03trubluGT]

It's been a loooooong time since I shopped for glass, or did any serious long range shooting, but I was under the impression that you don't want your zoom to vary with your reticle when zooming.

You want them to zoom at the exact power that is relative to distance, or some shit like that.

I really like the reticle on the NightForce (NP-1 RR) because you put it at a set power, and put figure out what circle fits the head of the subject you are trying to snipe (well, it's sold as the size of a prairie dog, but coincidentally, the size of the average prairie dog is the same as an adult human head from top to bottom - 9"). You then take the range of the subject and use the corresponding holdover.

[CJ]

I can't tell if that is CA or haze, but I can't see where the scope's focus point is at. In the entire area of coverage, front to back, I can't see a single focus point.

Or, it could be the fault of the camera that was used to take the picture.

it's focused on the bottom left edge of the sheet metal. Pretty shitty picture. FFP - first focal plane means that as you zoom in, you also zoom in on the reticle - meaning the reticle is actually on the first element, so you zoom into it. It's a really big deal because as you zoom in, you get more detail for accuracy - if you notice the first pic has what looks like a standard cross hair with a thin portion in the center, when you zoom in to 24x you see it's actually really detailed with sub-tensions. It's important because no matter what magnification you're at, your sub-tension hash marks are always accurate, and you don't need a different ballistics chart for different magnifications. In other words, at 500 yards you fire on the third hash mark for zero - whether you're at 6x or 24x the third hash mark lands dead center at 500 yards. You can also use the MOA hashes to judge range.



If the paper target you're shooting at is 24" across, you line it up in your scope and count the hashes - so in your scope you see your target, and you put it on a tree you have no damn idea how far away it is. And since you tossed a grand down on your scope you couldn't afford a laser range finder. So, you see your target is 6 hash marks across - or 6 MOA. You do a simple range calculation since you know 1 MOA = 95.5:

24 x 95.5
-------- = 382 yards away.
6

and then you move to your preset for the range, and bam - dead center shot. Your NF should have these hashes as well, however I don't know if your scope is an FFP, so you have to have different charts and tables for different magnifications. If you're not on the right magnification or your charts get messed up you'll be off. That's one of the features I like about the PST and it's price point. The NF may be clearer as far as glass, but a CA'ed sheet of paper or a crystal clear sheet of paper doesn't mean anything if you shoot high 8"

[CJ]

What is "FFP"?

The 8-23x has an illuminated reticle:

http://nightforceoptics.com/nightforcescopes/RETICLES_OVERVIEW/reticles_overview.html

Precision laser-etching on compound optical glass, smaller than a dime ensures a clear reticle in your field of view with no distortion, ensuring repeatability. A reliable internal lighting source illuminates the reticle against your target in low light, low contrast conditions. Illumination intensity is adjustable to accommodate the individual shooter.

Just one quick search shows the 8-32x at $1755 here:

http://www.bearbasin.com/nightforce-nxs-scope.htm

yeah none of those are FFP, big difference. The only one I see that is FFP is $2,300 and it's half the magnification I'm looking for. And it appears thats the only one they make, so they don't offer one in the magnification I'm looking for.