So you want a fully automatic firearm...

[Moose242]

Ok, so I get two or three private messages a month asking things like "how do I make my AR15 fully automatic," and "how do I buy a machine gun?". I figure it is time to go ahead and make a thread about it with details, and maybe a mod can sticky it. Anyways, here goes-


1. To own a machine gun, first of all you need money. Machine guns were banned in 1986, so only ones manufactured and registered prior to that year are transferable. Because of this, the cheapest machine gun you can buy is about $3,200. An m16 costs about $15,000 and so do AKs. An uzi is about 8k, and a beltfed m60 will cost you about 30k+. Owning an MG is not cheap, plus you have to buy ammo for it.

2. Find one for sale. Next you need to pay for it and begin the paperwork. You must fill out 2 ATF form 4s in duplicate (the forms can be found online). *Then get two passport photos and attach them, along with a set of FBI fingerprint cards. You also need to attach a $200 check or money order, as it costs $200 for the infamous "tax stamp" associated with class III stuff. Then fill out a certification of compliance. The final and hardest step is to get the local chief of law enforcement to sign your form 4s (a number of people can sign, for more information do a quick google search on who can sign a form 4). In Dallas county they will not sign. It is also worth noting that if an individual in the same state as you is selling the item, it is not necessary to go through a dealer.

3. You then submit all the paperwork, and about 3 to 4 months later the forms come back to your dealer and you can pick up your machine gun after filling out a 4473.


*Forming a trust or a corporation allows you to bypass the law enforcement signature, as well as the photos and finger print cards. You must however mail out a copy of the trust and the certification of trust. See the "Forming a Trust" sticky for more details.

There is no way around the pre 86 thing. No registration, no permit, nothing. To buy an MG, it had to be registered with the ATF prior to May of 1986. Because of this, you have to pay to play. Only holders of a federal firearms license who pay an extra fee to be a class III dealer can buy machine guns made after 1986. If you are not a class III dealer and you posses or make a machine gun that is not registered, it is a felony punishable by up to 10 years in federal prison and forfeiture of the individual's right to own or possess firearms in the future. The ATF does not play around here, and if you even have the parts to construct a machine gun and the gun they would go with, this is considered constructive intent and is the same as if you had an unregistered machine gun.



Anyways, I hope that helps. If you are in the market for something full auto, there are a couple of good places to look. Some of my favorites are-

http://www.dealernfa.com/
This is a good site run by a good guy who has good prices. Also, all of his stuff is on a form 3 so it will transfer tax free to your dealer.

http://subguns.com/classifieds/
A classifieds website for NFA firearms. Great stuff on there if you are selling or buying.

http://www.sturmgewehr.com/
A site much like the subguns board, but the layout is not quite as good.

[CJ]

stickied.

[Moose242]

Thank you sir

[Chopped54]

I do not think you have to send the certificate of trust, but required to send a copy of the full trust. Prior it was either or.

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by Chopped54

I do not think you have to send the certificate of trust, but required to send a copy of the full trust. Prior it was either or.

They now require both.

[Chopped54]

Originally Posted by DOHCTR

They now require both.

Are you for sure on this? This is the latest I have directly from BATFE:

When an ATF Form 4 or Form 5 application is submitted to transfer a firearm to a partnership,
company, association, trust, estate, or corporation (collectively, an entity), the transferee entity
must be identified on the Form 4 using the complete, formal name of the entity, along with the
entity’s street address, city, and state. The Form 4 or Form 5 must not include an individual’s
proper name, unless the proper name is a part of the entity’s name (e.g., The Irrevocable Trust of
John Doe, John Smith, Inc., etc.). ATF requires that the Form 4 or Form 5 include
documentation evidencing the existence of the entity. This documentation would include,
without limitation, partnership agreements, articles of incorporation, corporate registration, a
complete copy of the declaration of trust, schedules or attachments referenced in the trust, etc. If
the firearm being transferred is a machinegun, short barreled rifle, short barreled shotgun, or
destructive device and the transfer is from an FFL, a person authorized to act on behalf of the
entity must complete item 15 of the Form 4 and Form 5.

I put in a call to my examiner just to be 100% certain, but from what I have been told, and submitted, only one or the other is required as they are both seperate documents.

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by Chopped54

Are you for sure on this? This is the latest I have directly from BATFE:



I put in a call to my examiner just to be 100% certain, but from what I have been told, and submitted, only one or the other is required as they are both seperate documents.

I have been told by 2 class III dealers to go ahead and submit both of them, and this is what I have always done.

[CJ]

I was also a little confused by the certification of trust.

[Venix]

As soon as I get the ATF to approve my Type 7 FFL I will be a happier person.

[jw33]

1-800-MARINES. Plenty of trigger time and free ammo.

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by jw33

1-800-MARINES. Plenty of trigger time and free ammo.

Since AR15s/m16s are played out, I would rather join the Legion and get a free Famas

[John -- '02 HAWK]

As an informational thread we should probably limit the chit chat

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by John -- '02 HAWK

As an informational thread we should probably limit the chit chat

True, but it wouldn't really be a real DFWMustangs thread without a derailing, lol.

Anyways, if you have any questions about buying an MG or any other NFA item, feel free to ask it in this thread and I am sure that someone on this board can help you out.

[CJ]

Originally Posted by John -- '02 HAWK

As an informational thread we should probably limit the chit chat

I can delete the posts if need be.

[David]

Should be noted that being a Class 3 SOT does not permit in one manufacturing machine guns, just in dealing them to individuals or LEO agencies.

There's a whole nother clusterfuck with manufacturing machine guns and weapons of war shit.

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by David

Should be noted that being a Class 3 SOT does not permit in one manufacturing machine guns, just in dealing them to individuals or LEO agencies.

There's a whole nother clusterfuck with manufacturing machine guns and weapons of war shit.

Indeed, I should have noted that only a Class II manufacturer can actually make a post 86 machine gun.

[Rick Modena]

Badges?!?!?! (Hahahahahahahaha) we don't need any stinking badge (or forms)...

[gat0r]

good info

as an FYI,
none of my stamps have required a 'certification of trust'

they already have a few copies of my full trust on file. so a couple back i sent the 'certification of trust' instead of the full copy (just to test the waters), the examiner returned to 'certification of trust' & requested the full copy. so i just do full copy w/ schedule A now.

schedule A is where my s/n list resides. guess it all depends on how trust is setup

ymmv, as each examiner seems to be just a bit different

[Moose242]

Originally Posted by gat0r

good info

as an FYI,
none of my stamps have required a 'certification of trust'

they already have a few copies of my full trust on file. so a couple back i sent the 'certification of trust' instead of the full copy (just to test the waters), the examiner returned to 'certification of trust' & requested the full copy. so i just do full copy w/ schedule A now.

schedule A is where my s/n list resides. guess it all depends on how trust is setup

ymmv, as each examiner seems to be just a bit different

Interesting. It must really vary by examiner and trust. My trust has the scheduled items in the certification, so when I make an NFA purchase I write the item name and serial number in the schedule and submit it all.

[Chopped54]

Originally Posted by gat0r

good info

as an FYI,
none of my stamps have required a 'certification of trust'

they already have a few copies of my full trust on file. so a couple back i sent the 'certification of trust' instead of the full copy (just to test the waters), the examiner returned to 'certification of trust' & requested the full copy. so i just do full copy w/ schedule A now.

schedule A is where my s/n list resides. guess it all depends on how trust is setup

ymmv, as each examiner seems to be just a bit different

My trust list articles in the Schedule as well. The way I understood it in the past you could send just the certification in place of the trust, now they want the full copy.

Originally Posted by DOHCTR

Interesting. It must really vary by examiner and trust. My trust has the scheduled items in the certification, so when I make an NFA purchase I write the item name and serial number in the schedule and submit it all.

So you list your NFA item on the trust prior to owning it? That was one of the biggest things I have heard will get it kicked back....