So here's a question for the believers...

[BlackSnake]

All you've done here is demonstrated that you can parrot words from a book. A book which has no authority if your god does not exist. So, you must first show that your god exists before this book has any authority.

The Holy Spirit confirms in us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures us that the Bible is God's Word.


John 16

1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

[Maddhattter]

The Holy Spirit confirms in us that the Bible is the Word of God. John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures us that the Bible is God's Word.


John 16

1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

5But now I go my way to him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou?

6But because I have said these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart.

7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

16A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me, because I go to the Father.

17Then said some of his disciples among themselves, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father?

18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? we cannot tell what he saith.

19Now Jesus knew that they were desirous to ask him, and said unto them, Do ye enquire among yourselves of that I said, A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me?

20Verily, verily, I say unto you, That ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: and ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy.

21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but as soon as she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for joy that a man is born into the world.

22And ye now therefore have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no man taketh from you.

23And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.

26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

28I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

You are, again, putting the cart before the horse. You cannot site the authority of the book without first proving that it actually has authority. This is traditionally done by showing who the author is, and demonstrating the author's credentials.

So, as before, the ability to parrot a book does not, in any way, provide evidence to anything the book says At least not until the author is shown to be an authority on the subject matter.

Even when the author is an authority on the subject matter, the claims and arguments must stand on their own merit. In other words, they must be objectively demonstrable without the need for an appeal to authority.

This is where the question "Why bother investigating a source if the claim must stand on it's own?" usually comes in. A source must be valid to determine if the claimant can demonstrate that they have the knowledge and understanding to even comprehend the subject matter. If they do not possess this competency, like nearly every source that stephen4785 provided, there is no reason to even consider their argument due to lack of understanding of the content.

This leaves you with the same problem as before. You must first show that a god/gods actually exist before the book has can demonstrate that a god/gods has any characteristics outside of the literary context. You must then show that this god/gods are an authority on the subject matter being discussed. Finally, you must show that the claim is independently accurate.

[BlackSnake]

You are, again, putting the cart before the horse. You cannot site the authority of the book without first proving that it actually has authority. This is traditionally done by showing who the author is, and demonstrating the author's credentials.

Somehow I seem to feel a need to repost the last post once more over.

The Holy Spirit confirms in us that the Bible is the Word of God. Is this not good enough. I mean, if he (God) is willing to confirm, what else do you need. Its a "you go 1st" kind of thing.

John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: Again, you go 1st. You want to know the truth...Here ya go man. Its really just that simple.


for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." Once again, you go 1st. And then what? He. (God) will show you things to come


The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures us that the Bible is God's Word. Shall I say it again. <<



1 Corinthians 1
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”d

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

[Maddhattter]

Somehow I seem to feel a need to repost the last post once more over.

The Holy Spirit confirms in us that the Bible is the Word of God. Is this not good enough. I mean, if he (God) is willing to confirm, what else do you need. Its a "you go 1st" kind of thing.

John 16:13 says, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: Again, you go 1st. You want to know the truth...Here ya go man. Its really just that simple.


for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come." Once again, you go 1st. And then what? He. (God) will show you things to come


The Holy Spirit who convicts the world of sin also assures us that the Bible is God's Word. Shall I say it again. <<



1 Corinthians 1
20Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25For the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength.

26Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29so that no one may boast before him. 30It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.”d

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

None of this shows who the author is, nor does it demonstrate the author's credentials. It merely asserts it. So, this overcomes none of the objections you seem to be trying to counter. Putting your claim right back at square one.

I will concede that it may be my explanations that are not being delivering the message properly. So, let me put this directly... The bible stating that the father/son/holy spirit did anything is suspect because, as stated earlier, there is no verification of authority. We don't know the author, nor do we know the authors credentials on the subject. We also cannot objectively verify the claim of having the holy spirit's endorsement, let alone the inability to objectively verify the claim that a spirit, of any kind, even exists.

Your entire post is basically stating that To Kill a Mockingbird is a factual account of events that actually occurred because Scout asserts that all of this happened.

[The King]

The Holy Spirit confirms in us that the Bible is the Word of God.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

No matter how many times you say it, 'Snake, some will simply refuse to listen. Your opening statement and Scripture quoted above cover it quite well.

[BlackSnake]

None of this shows who the author is, nor does it demonstrate the author's credentials.

Maddhattter, I do take a shinning to you for your sharp intelect and for your ability to communicate. Peace to you man.

I do understand what you are getting at, or at least I think I do, but my friend, you really do have to go first. Your concrete evidence will never appear to you the way you wish nor will you see it like you do the rain, the sun and other tangible things of this world.

The author and His credentials will be clearer than anything you have ever known as soon as you decide to except Him in truth by faith. Once you take that leap of faith, you will begin a relationship with a real God, our Father.

[Jester]

Maddhattter, I do take a shinning to you for your sharp intelect and for your ability to communicate. Peace to you man.

I do understand what you are getting at, or at least I think I do, but my friend, you really do have to go first. Your concrete evidence will never appear to you the way you wish nor will you see it like you do the rain, the sun and other tangible things of this world.

The author and His credentials will be clearer than anything you have ever known as soon as you decide to except Him in truth by faith. Once you take that leap of faith, you will begin a relationship with a real God, our Father.

Amen

[racrguy]

Maddhattter, I do take a shinning to you for your sharp intelect and for your ability to communicate. Peace to you man.

I do understand what you are getting at, or at least I think I do, but my friend, you really do have to go first. Your concrete evidence will never appear to you the way you wish nor will you see it like you do the rain, the sun and other tangible things of this world.

The author and His credentials will be clearer than anything you have ever known as soon as you decide to except Him in truth by faith. Once you take that leap of faith, you will begin a relationship with a real God, our Father.

To summarize this post.

The bible will become true after you already believe it.

[BlackSnake]

To summarize this post.

[Maddhattter]

Maddhattter, I do take a shinning to you for your sharp intelect and for your ability to communicate. Peace to you man.

I enjoy these types of conversations. I hope that I'm not coming off as insulting you or any other person in this thread. I don't intend to.

I do understand what you are getting at, or at least I think I do, but my friend, you really do have to go first. Your concrete evidence will never appear to you the way you wish nor will you see it like you do the rain, the sun and other tangible things of this world.

The problem with not getting evidence, as one has with the rain and sun, is that there is no way to tell reality from fantasy without it.

Example: A paranoid schizophrenic believes that there is some external force(NSA, CIA, Aliens, Ghosts) is constantly after them. They believe this before they see any evidence. This causes confirmation bias to kick in. So, when the person sees any and all evidence as supporting their claim, regardless of validity, viability, cost or reason.

The author and His credentials will be clearer than anything you have ever known as soon as you decide to except Him in truth by faith. Once you take that leap of faith, you will begin a relationship with a real God, our Father.

This is simply axiomatic. I agree with you on this point. If I believe something to be true, I will believe it to be true. All I need to do is believe.

In the same way as the example above, I would see evidence supporting what I already believe, rather than following it to the truth. This would apply to any unfalsifiable claim. Zeus, Odin, Mumm-ra the Ever-Living can all be "proven" in the same way. If you believe with no evidence, then you will believe regardless of evidence. This is why I demand for a means of objective verification if I am to believe something. This is so that I have a reliable means of determining reality from fantasy.

Also, I have already believed without evidence and god proved itself no more clear or real than an imaginary friend. I only believed it to be so. This is why I contest your assertion of "rejecting god". I did not reject god. I could not reject god. There was none to be found outside of my own anecdotal experiences. There were lots of things I attributed to god, none of it could be shown to have actually been attributable to god.

[racrguy]

What a horrible and ignorant reason to believe something...

[80coupe]

ah just thought id leave this here saw on another forum.

[racrguy]

ah just thought id leave this here saw on another forum.

He says that there's all this historic evidence for Jesus, then says it's in the bible. He can't name one source outside of the bible that speaks about jesus or anything else like that. That whole video, and everything he says, except for what the bible states is bullshit, 100% bullshit. It's funny he was using the straw man in his video, because that's exactly what he's doing.

For an explanation of a straw man fallacy, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

And he can't be trusted to speak on anything other than what the bible says. Not history, not geology, not cosmology. NOTHING. Here's his linkedin account that lists his "education," if one can call it that.

http://www.linkedin.com/pub/dr-gary-crossland/a/8/78b

The "school" he got his "doctorate" from could barely be considered a school of higher learning. I see no requirements for standard education classes, English, Math, sciences. Things of that nature. And we also have the doctrinal creed of the school, which states:

The Institutions of The Master's Educational Consortium hold to and affirm the proper separation of church and state; congregational autonomy; the true church consisting of the born-again; the voluntary post-conversion baptism of believers; Scripture alone as the final authority in all matters of faith and practice; and the right of the church to exercise control over its own educational disciplines, processes, and programs.


In Particular We Believe in and Affirm the Following Seven Requisites:


1. The Divine inspiration of the Canonical Books of the Old and New Testaments as originally given, and preserved throughout the ages as the only infallible, inerrant and sufficient source of theology and doctrine including its revelation of all things and persons both physical and spiritual: (Ps. 119:9, 89, 105; Matt. 24:35; 1 Thess. 2:13; 2 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 4:12; 1 Pet. 1:25; 2 Pet. 1:21);......

http://mdivs.edu/creed.html

You can't look at things objectively when you already have the presupposition that they are true, and infallible. No wonder this guy can only come up with fallacies. Son of a fuck. And some people think what he says is good/educated? I lol'd.

[80coupe]

just thought y'all would get a kick out of it.

[Denny]

Not many people were journalists back then.