So here's a question for the believers...

[The King]

Speaking of jokes, we are still waiting to see racrguy's documented and verifiable proof to back up his regurgitated post that babies are born atheists.

[BlackSnake]

What a horrible and ignorant reason to believe something...

1 Corinthians 2

1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

[racrguy]

1 Corinthians 2

1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? but we have the mind of Christ.

Seriously? I'm trying to be nice to you here. You CANNOT use the bible to prove itself, or the bible alone to prove anything else. If your bible was smart, it would be able to demonstrate what it says is true and not expect you to take what it says on faith.

You might as well be quoting a Spiderman comic or any of the Harry Potter manuscripts for all I care. They all hold as much factual validity as the others.

[BlackSnake]

Seriously? I'm trying to be nice to you here. You CANNOT use the bible to prove itself, or the bible alone to prove anything else. If your bible was smart, it would be able to demonstrate what it says is true and not expect you to take what it says on faith.

You might as well be quoting a Spiderman comic or any of the Harry Potter manuscripts for all I care. They all hold as much factual validity as the others.

I also am trying to be nice. Really trying hard to show you why you dont get it. Just read and comprehend what I'm spilling out for you. The answer is directly in your face and you simply refuse to understand it.

Just courious...Do you believe in spirits?

[racrguy]

I also am trying to be nice. Really trying hard to show you why you dont get it. Just read and comprehend what I'm spilling out for you. The answer is directly in your face and you simply refuse to understand it.

I understand what you're trying to tell me. You're essentially asking me to accept "because I said so" as a valid reason. I reject "because I said so."

Just courious...Do you believe in spirits?

No. Why would I? There's just as much evidence for them as there are any other supernatural phenomenon in the world.

[BlackSnake]

I understand what you're trying to tell me. You're essentially asking me to accept "because I said so" as a valid reason. I reject "because I said so."


No. Why would I? There's just as much evidence for them as there are any other supernatural phenomenon in the world.

Because "I" said so? Not at all man. I'm just giving it to you as I have learned.

Dont get all worked up. I'm sharing with you something that has been very real in my life since 12 years of age. Yes, I have slid down the slope and very hard a few times, but I always knew that God was there for me. I ride no big horse, nor do I think I'm better than you. In fact, I probably fall short as I know the truth and I live my way in times that I should follow my Father more closely.

[racrguy]

Because "I" said so? Not at all man. I'm just giving it to you as I have learned.

Not you specifically, but if it's as if someone (in this case the bible) were to tell you "because I said so."

Dont get all worked up. I'm sharing with you something that has been very real in my life since 12 years of age. Yes, I have slid down the slope and very hard a few times, but I always knew that God was there for me. I ride no big horse, nor do I think I'm better than you. In fact, I probably fall short as I know the truth and I live my way in times that I should follow my Father more closely.

It grates my nerves when I explain to you in as plain English as I can muster how what you're doing is not acceptable to a skeptical person such as myself, yet you continue to repeat the same actions. That is literally insanity on your part.

Also, your father is infinitely more demonstrable than your "Father." I'd suggest following your father.

[BlackSnake]

Not you specifically, but if it's as if someone (in this case the bible) were to tell you "because I said so."



It grates my nerves when I explain to you in as plain English as I can muster how what you're doing is not acceptable to a skeptical person such as myself, yet you continue to repeat the same actions. That is literally insanity on your part.

Also, your father is infinitely more demonstrable than your "Father." I'd suggest following your father.

Replace "skeptical person" with "believer" and I could say the same thing.

If you decide to post in the theology forum, then I would expect to hear the side of the believer. Makes since to me.

The Spirit, the Bible and faith are accentually what proves to the believer the fact that God and Bible are real. When these are in place, there is no doubt.

And by the way, I know what you are saying, and I know what kind of proof "you" need to except things as they are. Problem for "you" is that you will never get it cause of how you choose to gain knowledge. Free will, and we both have chosen our paths.

[YALE]

Replace "skeptical person" with "believer" and I could say the same thing.

If you decide to post in the theology forum, then I would expect to hear the side of the believer. Makes since to me.

The Spirit, the Bible and faith are accentually what proves to the believer the fact that God and Bible are real. When these are in place, there is no doubt.

And by the way, I know what you are saying, and I know what kind of proof "you" need to except things as they are. Problem for "you" is that you will never get it cause of how you choose to gain knowledge. Free will, and we both have chosen our paths.

Technically, if your god exists, there is no free will.

[racrguy]

Technically, if your god exists, there is no free will.

Everything, even this conversation, is part of "gods plan/will"

For you, Wayne. It's a little long, but watch the whole thing. It's difficult to hear at times.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LuqfMtwo4o[/ame]

[BlackSnake]

Technically, if your god exists, there is no free will.

You lost me there. How so?

For you, Wayne. It's a little long, but watch the whole thing. It's difficult to hear at times.

The guy is a fool at best. He still believes in evolution lol, he claimed to be a "believer" at one time but in the same sentence said that he questioned his belief. Thats not faith or belief. He stated that the Bible told different stories of the same account...Where? Half the things he said sounded more like things he heard from someone else and didn't make effort the search them out on his own.

His main argument was that "faith" is a lie. And it was the only good argument that he had, unless you can point out a better one he spoke of. To a guy like himself, that probably never had faith, (just dabbled in a small portion of maybe belief) I can understand why he thinks the way he does.

Oh, and him claiming that we Christians believe that Satan was a woman, lol...Just because there are claims of pictures/drawings of serpents with breast? Please.

Even you are smarter than this idiot.

[YALE]

You lost me there. How so?

An omnipotent god would by definition mean an omniscient god, meaning he could see all your future actions ahead of time, before you even knew how you'd act. Choice would be illusory.

[BlackSnake]

An omnipotent god would by definition mean an omniscient god, meaning he could see all your future actions ahead of time, before you even knew how you'd act. Choice would be illusory.

Just because God can foresee which choice you will make does not mean you couldn't still freely choose.

If I was to leave a cookie on the table knowing that my 4 year old grandson was about to enter, I know him well enough to know what he will do. He is gonna get the cookie and eat it. He chose this action without my influance. I didnt even have to be in the same house, much less room.

[Jester]

You lost me there. How so?


The guy is a fool at best. He still believes in evolution lol, he claimed to be a "believer" at one time but in the same sentence said that he questioned his belief. Thats not faith or belief. He stated that the Bible told different stories of the same account...Where? Half the things he said sounded more like things he heard from someone else and didn't make effort the search them out on his own.

His main argument was that "faith" is a lie. And it was the only good argument that he had, unless you can point out a better one he spoke of. To a guy like himself, that probably never had faith, (just dabbled in a small portion of maybe belief) I can understand why he thinks the way he does.

Oh, and him claiming that we Christians believe that Satan was a woman, lol...Just because there are claims of pictures/drawings of serpents with breast? Please.

Even you are smarter than this idiot.

uhhhh, Wayne, we did evolve......we continually evolve. We used to have tails........and our wisdom teeth were needed once upon a time.

[Maddhattter]

Just because God can foresee which choice you will make does not mean you couldn't still freely choose.

If I was to leave a cookie on the table knowing that my 4 year old grandson was about to enter, I know him well enough to know what he will do. He is gonna get the cookie and eat it. He chose this action without my influance. I didnt even have to be in the same house, much less room.

Sorry. The two scenarios are not analogous due to the one making the prediction.

When god, being omniscient, knows how everything is going to play out until the end of time, then all these events are predetermined. If things were to not play out the way god knows, then god would be wrong and therefore not omniscient. This means that, ultimately, there is no choice, as things can only play out one way.

When you, not being omniscient, believe a situation will play out in a certain way you can be wrong. Many factors affect the outcome of your hypothetical. If your grandson were to not notice the cookie, he would not eat it. If he was not in the mood for a cookie, he would not eat it. If he began to fear punishment for taking the cookie, he would not eat it. If he was caught in the attempt to take the cookie by his parents, they could stop him from taking the cookie and eating it.

You are only making a prediction about future events based on how things have played out in the past, and are subject to being wrong.

God, on the other hand, cannot be wrong, due his omniscience. If god cannot be wrong, then we are not truly making a choice, but merely playing the part the only way it could be played.

So, if god is omniscient, we have no free will.

The guy is a fool at best.

You've failed to support this claim.

He still believes in evolution lol,

This perfectly illustrates my point about believing something despite the evidence. In science, evolution is one of the best supported theories there is. All modern branches of biology accept and support evolution. That doesn't even touch on psychology and sociology. There is no branch of actual science that refutes or even argues the validity of evolution. The only thing that argues against evolution is religion. You have to ignore, or be ignorant of, the mountain of demonstrable, repeatable, and falsifiable evidence to claim that evolution is false.

he claimed to be a "believer" at one time but in the same sentence said that he questioned his belief. Thats not faith or belief.

Incorrect on both counts. He claimed that most atheists were believers, this is true. Very few atheists grow up in atheistic families. Most are raised in theism. Of those raised in theism, a majority of them in America are former Christians. They stopped being believers when they started to question their belief and found only faith.

You see, you can believe something and question that belief. These are not mutually exclusive. You must believe to have faith, as faith is belief without evidence. If you question that belief, you still have faith, you still believe, you are just unsure as to whether you should believe.

He stated that the Bible told different stories of the same account...Where?

I agree, he did not qualify his statement. However, differences are not hard to find in the story of Jesus alone, let alone the rest of the bible.

Half the things he said sounded more like things he heard from someone else and didn't make effort the search them out on his own.

Now you are the one making unqualified assertions. How did one half sound like he researched and the other half not? What were the differences between the halves?

His main argument was that "faith" is a lie. And it was the only good argument that he had, unless you can point out a better one he spoke of.

You've not refuted any of his arguments. So, to say that his main argument was is only good one is a little disingenuous.

To a guy like himself, that probably never had faith, (just dabbled in a small portion of maybe belief) I can understand why he thinks the way he does.

If he believed something without evidence, then he had faith. He also would have had belief. If he believed in god any point, he had faith. There is currently no other means of believing in god.

Oh, and him claiming that we Christians believe that Satan was a woman, lol...Just because there are claims of pictures/drawings of serpents with breast? Please.

Misrepresenting the argument doesn't help prove he's wrong. He stated that it is apparent that christians used to believe that Satan is a woman. He never stated that they currently do. He also explained his stance in which "pictures/drawings of serpents with breast" was one of a few things he used to support his stance.

Mind you, I cannot agree with him on this point as I do not know where is is getting is information from with regards to the pictures and drawings of serpents with breasts. They may or may not exists for all I know. I cannot, however, state that he is wrong for all the same reasons.

Even you are smarter than this idiot.

Can you first demonstrate that he is incorrect and is, in fact, an idiot?

I would suggest that you actually review a person's entire argument before attempting to deconstruct or refute it. You should also verify the evidence they've presented to see if it's accurate. This will prevent the kinds of misunderstandings you've had here and will also educate you on the topic, if the person is correct.