Open carry supporters – I have a question for you

[svauto-erotic855]

The hill billy meth heads are offended by their exclusion




Thats where you are wrong. It is already known that many of them cc (illegally or not) what we are watching for is those grey area carriers to goto OC, and if that OC leads to more crime in those communities

Compared to the men engaged in the fratricidal war that blacks are waging against each other in this country, hill billy meth heads are Sunday school teachers.

Been to the bad parts of Philly lately? I was last there in 2001 and saw drugs being dealt on the street corners during the day by men wearing body armor and open carrying. I am sure that it has not gotten any better since then.

Serious violent crime and violent crime committed with firearms is mostly black on black in the USA. A minority within a minority is responsible for a little under 80% of the murders that we have each year nation wide. So long as they are just killing each other I will not lose any sleep over it.

Concealed carry will not change that nor will open carry. About the only thing that could change that is to not allow any black males under that age of 30 to own firearms of any sort and to allow for summary execution of any black male caught with one. I would not be a supporter of a law like that and doubt that anyone else would either. Summary execution for being a gang member would also put a serious dent in the crime problem as well.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

The largest factor in violent crime is the percentage of non-whites who live in a particular area and really has nothing to do with open or concealed carry.

The hill billy meth heads are offended by their exclusion

Atlanta already has near universal concealed carry amongst the cities gang members most of whom are already convicted felons and would not be a good case study. The same can be said for just about every cities "Bad area" in the entire nation.

Thats where you are wrong. It is already known that many of them cc (illegally or not) what we are watching for is those grey area carriers to goto OC, and if that OC leads to more crime in those communities

[svauto-erotic855]

It would be interesting to see some crime level stats based urban population density, and household income while factoring in open carry, cc, and no carry.


Atlanta will be a good model, of what will or wont happen. Summer time heat and below average household income

The largest factor in violent crime is the percentage of non-whites who live in a particular area and really has nothing to do with open or concealed carry. Atlanta already has near universal concealed carry amongst the cities gang members most of whom are already convicted felons and would not be a good case study. The same can be said for just about every cities "Bad area" in the entire nation.

[sc281]

None of the OC states dont have the population of Texas, and some might not have the population of the metroplex.

It would be interesting to see some crime level stats based urban population density, and household income while factoring in open carry, cc, and no carry.

We may have high population overall, but lower pop density than many, even in the dfw area. Your crime stats argument is interesting, but those areas tend to very liberal ( read anti gun) and it would be hard to find a city that excercises their right to cc or oc enough to be a goid indicator of whether the policy is effective or not.

I think many places are just ignorant of the laws because nobody has ever pressed the issue. But if you expose the vocal minority to the firearms that are being carried then there is a greater chance of the signage being correctly applied.

There would also be a greater chance of those same people realizing the gun doesn't jump out of the holster and shoot them in the face just because now they can see it instead of it being hidden by a t shirt.

There would also be a chance of the non vocal majority showing their disapproval of business in effect banning their right to bear arms by either the ballot box, voting for reforms like Georgia did, or by their wallets by giving their money to the restaurant that lets them carry.

The left is misquoting what chipotle and starbucks said. They both said we are not the venue for the debate, they did not say the didnt want the individuals buying their products

Then they have just made my point from above. Business is reluctant to piss of the people that hand them retarded amounts of money for stuff those people can make with uncle ben's and some lime or can get out of a folger's can.

Atlanta will be a good model, of what will or wont happen. Summer time heat and below average household income

Only if those residents actually carry.

[sc281]

Because he is required to as a uniformed officer. If he could wear normal clothes, you bet you ass he would roll concealed. I know this because when I have hung out with Matt off duty we have talked about concealed carry methods and pieces.

He is also going into scenarios that put him at risk of someone taking the gun all day erry day. His risks of a gun being grabbed are exponentially higher than the civilian oc'er, who does not arrest people, walk into gangs on purpose, execute warrants, stop cars, etc. and potentially invite assualt by any or all of these actions.

Like a soldier, his level of vigilance is far higher than yours or mine. And, like a returning soldier from war, his level of vigilance doesn't go down when he takes off the uniform.

When all you do is assess threats, the potential is there to over estimate the likelyhood of a threat.

No Soldier, that bag of trash at the Johnson's curb is not necessarily an IED, and no Officer that gun on the outside of your jeans off duty is not necessarily going to find its way into the bad guy's hands.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

There are many states who have had open carry for years.

None of the OC states dont have the population of Texas, and some might not have the population of the metroplex.

It would be interesting to see some crime level stats based urban population density, and household income while factoring in open carry, cc, and no carry.

Many businesses say the don't allow weapons, but very few actually comply with the law by putting up the correct signage to forbid it.

I think many places are just ignorant of the laws because nobody has ever pressed the issue. But if you expose the vocal minority to the firearms that are being carried then there is a greater chance of the signage being correctly applied.

I've been to two Chipotle since their announcement and they still don't have correct 30.06 signs in place.

The left is misquoting what chipotle and starbucks said. They both said we are not the venue for the debate, they did not say the didnt want the individuals buying their products

As OC becomes more prevalent, states will follow Georgia's lead on gun laws anyway, making most of those moot.

Atlanta will be a good model, of what will or wont happen. Summer time heat and below average household income

[Cooter]

the problem is in fantasy land

[sc281]

The only person in the room who's going to have the element of surprise is the one who grabs your gun. No way i'm going to allow that.

That's your personal preference, and it's understandable. However, I can just as easily have my cc taken away if someone knocks me over the head trying for my wallet.

Personally, I would probably oc most of the time with a level 2 holster. The relatively few incidents of being attacked specifically to steal a gun, in my mind, aren't enough of a danger to me to worry about, or to give up the potential deterrence factor of a visible firearm. I say potential only because it is impossible to quantify how many crimes were not committed due to the presence of someone oc'ing.

I would like to have the choice whether to oc or cc, and not be pigeonholed into one or the other by anyone.

Arizona as an example has oc and cc available to them without these nightmare scenarios occuring with any regularity, so I'm not seeing where the problem is.

[sc281]

it would likely decrease casual crimes of opportunity, but I think it would result in crimes becoming more preplanned and methodical. I would also expect the level of violence to escalate quicker in these crimes.

I would also expect more companies to post no firearms signs, and refuse to do buisness with those that are open carrying. Which would in turn affect the concealed carriers.

Another downside would be more incidental police shootings involving open carriers. If Dallas will shoot a man with a knife in a chair what do you think will happen when the person has a gun.

I also think it will lead to more neighborhood related conflicts. Think of what will happen in the poor areas of any city if their denizens start openly carrying (legally or not).

There are many states who have had open carry for years.

Why are we not hearing of an epidemic open carriers killing eachother, even in those poor areas?
Shootings by cop aren't markedly higher in open carry states than they are in non oc states.


I understand the assumptions and the logic behind them, but those assumptions haven't beared out in the real world.


As far as businesses banning them in more numbers, look to our own 30.06. Many businesses say the don't allow weapons, but very few actually comply with the law by putting up the correct signage to forbid it. I've been to two Chipotle since their announcement and they still don't have correct 30.06 signs in place. Same goes for the movie theatres, buffalo wild wings, and I'm sure many others that have "banned guns". If anyone has been to Starbucks, can they tell me if they have correct signs up?

As OC becomes more prevalent, states will follow Georgia's lead on gun laws anyway, making most of those moot.

Georgia signs 'guns everywhere' into law

Interesting points. Can't say I disagree with any of that.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

if people were walking around with a visible firearm it would decrease crime?

it would likely decrease casual crimes of opportunity, but I think it would result in crimes becoming more preplanned and methodical. I would also expect the level of violence to escalate quicker in these crimes.

I would also expect more companies to post no firearms signs, and refuse to do buisness with those that are open carrying. Which would in turn affect the concealed carriers.

Another downside would be more incidental police shootings involving open carriers. If Dallas will shoot a man with a knife in a chair what do you think will happen when the person has a gun.

I also think it will lead to more neighborhood related conflicts. Think of what will happen in the poor areas of any city if their denizens start openly carrying (legally or not).

[CJ]

The only person in the room who's going to have the element of surprise is the one who grabs your gun. No way i'm going to allow that.

Well, I worded that really poorly unfortunately. Maybe I was thinking more highly of humans than they deserved while I was still waking up. At any rate, I concede that it DOES happen, but in such a small cross section it is akin to picking one incident out of a sampling size of tens of thousands and presenting it as the norm.

Do you guys think if one in five people were walking around with a visible firearm it would decrease crime? One in twenty? I genuinely do.

[CJ]

I hear this theory all the time. When has it ever actually happened? How many people intentionally commit a crime in front of the police?

Last year sometime I posted up a whole slew of stories where it happened.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

I hear this theory all the time. When has it ever actually happened?

http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Security-Guard-Shot-Behind-Bank-in-Dallas-128810073.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/08/us/in-houston-armored-cars-are-doing-the-opposite-of-dissuading-robbers.html?_r=0

How many people intentionally commit a crime in front of the police?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/24/justice/california-shooting-deaths/