Beretta 1301 Tactical?

[AnthonyS]

One pellet of 00 buck weighs in at 53.8 grains and round balls have very poor penetration. Body armor can be bought online for under 250 bucks that is impervious to buckshot.

Try patterning a shot gun at various distances with various self defense loads. What you will find if you take the time to do it will show you that much of what is believed about shotguns is total bullshit. Seriously; 20 minutes, some poster board, and a few boxes of shells will blow your mind. You will never know until you try. I will even pay you for the materials if you promise to go do it.

You are correct about what a solid hit on an unarmored target will get you; a dead target.

I've dropped 25 rds of buckshot on 3 man sized targets from 3 to 25 yards more than once using ye ole pump shotgun on the MC shotgun course. I know exactly what it looks like. Body armor.... crotch shot your pecker and leg arteries bleed out pretty quick. The two largest arteries pass through that region.

I might even remember the shotgun course of fire but it's been a while. I typically took 90secs or do for all 25 rds. It'd be faster with a 1301.

[SS Junk]

Body armor.... crotch shot your pecker and leg arteries bleed out pretty quick. The two largest arteries pass through that region.

You know they're going to be wearing body armor and be quick enough to get a "crotch shot" off before they return fire? That's some SVO shit right there!

[CJ]

One pellet of 00 buck weighs in at 53.8 grains and round balls have very poor penetration. Body armor can be bought online for under 250 bucks that is impervious to buckshot.

Try patterning a shot gun at various distances with various self defense loads. What you will find if you take the time to do it will show you that much of what is believed about shotguns is total bullshit. Seriously; 20 minutes, some poster board, and a few boxes of shells will blow your mind. You will never know until you try. I will even pay you for the materials if you promise to go do it.

You are correct about what a solid hit on an unarmored target will get you; a dead target.

Well, your logic is a little basic here. It's really ballistically equivalent (or closest to) getting hit with a .38spl nine times.

Pattern is directly the result of the ammo as much as it is the choke or the barrel of the gun. I can get insane spread using a cup with no petals, no buffer material, etc. The shells I load for my grenade launcher have a 36" spread at 15 feet, for instance. The part you seem to be missing is the cumulative aspect. For instance, if you take a chest shot cleanly you absorb an ounce of lead in a chest plate. That is incredible energy delivery. You will not take an ounce of lead moving at 1,200fps in the chest and do anything other than drop like a rock. Yeah the armor will stop it, but you're dead because while you're trying to recover from what just happened you're being ventilated on the ground.

That's also assuming every single pellet impacts the same plate. Reality would dictate some of those pellets would wander off the plate. If that happens, you're down and dead, basically. I don't see anyone taking a buckshot pellet and staying in the fight. If the result of that injury is anything other than 100% disabling your target with the next shot, you're going to get killed by the following shot from the guy holding the shotgun.

Out of all the weapons one might encounter, a shotgun with buckshot is probably one of the least survivable. Don't get caught up the fact the armor plate may stop the projectile, you still have energy to contend with.

[AnthonyS]

Pershing > SVO

https://owlcation.com/humanities/World-War-1-History-Germany-Declares-Shotgun-Inhumane

[YALE]

Pershing > SVO

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Wor...otgun-Inhumane

False equivalency.

[AnthonyS]

False equivalency.

Probably.

[svauto-erotic855]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnhI_ECOAK4

I've dropped 25 rds of buckshot on 3 man sized targets from 3 to 25 yards more than once using ye ole pump shotgun on the MC shotgun course. I know exactly what it looks like. Body armor.... crotch shot your pecker and leg arteries bleed out pretty quick. The two largest arteries pass through that region.

I might even remember the shotgun course of fire but it's been a while. I typically took 90secs or do for all 25 rds. It'd be faster with a 1301.

I am an aim at the pelvis type also.

My point is that there is not really isn't much spread to the pattern unless you happen to be shooting down a very long hall way.

Well, your logic is a little basic here. It's really ballistically equivalent (or closest to) getting hit with a .38spl nine times.

Pattern is directly the result of the ammo as much as it is the choke or the barrel of the gun. I can get insane spread using a cup with no petals, no buffer material, etc. The shells I load for my grenade launcher have a 36" spread at 15 feet, for instance. The part you seem to be missing is the cumulative aspect. For instance, if you take a chest shot cleanly you absorb an ounce of lead in a chest plate. That is incredible energy delivery. You will not take an ounce of lead moving at 1,200fps in the chest and do anything other than drop like a rock. Yeah the armor will stop it, but you're dead because while you're trying to recover from what just happened you're being ventilated on the ground.

That's also assuming every single pellet impacts the same plate. Reality would dictate some of those pellets would wander off the plate. If that happens, you're down and dead, basically. I don't see anyone taking a buckshot pellet and staying in the fight. If the result of that injury is anything other than 100% disabling your target with the next shot, you're going to get killed by the following shot from the guy holding the shotgun.

Out of all the weapons one might encounter, a shotgun with buckshot is probably one of the least survivable. Don't get caught up the fact the armor plate may stop the projectile, you still have energy to contend with.

Where do you find .38spl loads that weigh in at 53.8 grains? I guess you load them yourself.

My .38spl loads usually start around 110 grains and higher and I can not ever recall seeing a bullet in that diameter under 90 grains.

As far as taking an ounce of lead to the chest. Place the butt of a shotgun in the center of your chest and pull the trigger. The recoil that you feel is exactly how much energy the load being fired would strike you with. The only difference is the area that the force is applied to. I can punch with more energy than the hottest .357 Mag can deliver but the area of my fist is quite a bit larger than the area on the bullets face so there is no penetration from my fist (sometimes there is but that is another topic) while there is a great deal of penetration from the bullet.

As a test you should find something that can not be penetrated by a shot gun slug that weighs in at about 100lbs. See how far it will move when you empty a shot gun into it and then go try to move it by hand. You will find that shooting it did not move it an appreciable amount and that moving it by hand doesn't take much effort.

Pershing > SVO

https://owlcation.com/humanities/Wor...otgun-Inhumane

Body armor was not common back then and the distances involved in trench warfare were very short. I know what a shot gun at close range does to a person. Have you ever heard the old saying "Shotgun dead"?

I have an old Winchester trench gun and love it.

[GeorgeG.]

I wonder how this compares to the Mossberg JM Pro. I've been on the fence about one of those guns.

[svauto-erotic855]

I wonder how this compares to the Mossberg JM Pro. I've been on the fence about one of those guns.

The Mossberg's are great performers but the gas system has some fragile plastic parts that worry me. I have always wanted to remake them in metal.

[32vfromhell]

Was able to pick one up for a little cheaper with some ammo. Casey, thanks for the lead, i'm sure it will sell soon!

[CJ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YnhI_ECOAK4



I am an aim at the pelvis type also.

My point is that there is not really isn't much spread to the pattern unless you happen to be shooting down a very long hall way.



Where do you find .38spl loads that weigh in at 53.8 grains? I guess you load them yourself.

My .38spl loads usually start around 110 grains and higher and I can not ever recall seeing a bullet in that diameter under 90 grains.

As far as taking an ounce of lead to the chest. Place the butt of a shotgun in the center of your chest and pull the trigger. The recoil that you feel is exactly how much energy the load being fired would strike you with. The only difference is the area that the force is applied to. I can punch with more energy than the hottest .357 Mag can deliver but the area of my fist is quite a bit larger than the area on the bullets face so there is no penetration from my fist (sometimes there is but that is another topic) while there is a great deal of penetration from the bullet.

As a test you should find something that can not be penetrated by a shot gun slug that weighs in at about 100lbs. See how far it will move when you empty a shot gun into it and then go try to move it by hand. You will find that shooting it did not move it an appreciable amount and that moving it by hand doesn't take much effort.



Body armor was not common back then and the distances involved in trench warfare were very short. I know what a shot gun at close range does to a person. Have you ever heard the old saying "Shotgun dead"?

I have an old Winchester trench gun and love it.

How about as a test I supply armor and shoot you in the chest with a 12ga?

As for the 38spc comment you're forgetting energy delivery is a result of weight AND velocity. You're thinking one dimensionally. A pellet and a 38spl deliver between 200-250 ftlbs.

[svauto-erotic855]

How about as a test I supply armor and shoot you in the chest with a 12ga?

As for the 38spc comment you're forgetting energy delivery is a result of weight AND velocity. You're thinking one dimensionally. A pellet and a 38spl deliver between 200-250 ftlbs.

I am older than you and have been doing this longer than you; you seriously think I forgot about velocity? Double the weight and you double the energy. Double the velocity and you have 4 times the energy. FYI: My pet .38spl loads clock about 1140fps with a 158gr bullet and a six inch barrel.

No thank you on the armor test but I will gladly shoot a shotgun with any safe load you can come up with in the manner that I described so you can see if it knocks me down. I will also fasten a steel plate to the end of a log that weighs about half of what I do and see if you can move it by shooting it with a shotgun with any load that you care to devise. I think you already know how that test will work out.

[red89notch]

How about as a test I supply armor and shoot you in the chest with a 12ga?

Your blatant disregard for firearm safety is absolutely appalling sir!

On a serious note though, SVO has taken every type of 12 guage ammo to the chest while wearing only an under armour shit and and nothing was able to penetrate his skin. The force of the shots were barely even felt.

[CJ]

I am older than you and have been doing this longer than you; you seriously think I forgot about velocity? Double the weight and you double the energy. Double the velocity and you have 4 times the energy. FYI: My pet .38spl loads clock about 1140fps with a 158gr bullet and a six inch barrel.

No thank you on the armor test but I will gladly shoot a shotgun with any safe load you can come up with in the manner that I described so you can see if it knocks me down. I will also fasten a steel plate to the end of a log that weighs about half of what I do and see if you can move it by shooting it with a shotgun with any load that you care to devise. I think you already know how that test will work out.

Lol, okay bro. You're older. You also clean pools, which is of the same relevance. I noticed you completely crawfished on my point, which was completely valid. I don't give a shit what your custom loads do. A standard 38spc is slow, and buckshot is much higher velocity. Their energy delivery is comparable, which was the whole fucking point you attempted to shit on but have now moved off of.

[svauto-erotic855]

Your blatant disregard for firearm safety is absolutely appalling sir!

On a serious note though, SVO has taken every type of 12 guage ammo to the chest while wearing only an under armour shit and and nothing was able to penetrate his skin. The force of the shots were barely even felt.

I would not and do not own anything from under armour.

Believe it or not firearms follow conventional laws of physics. The equal and opposite reactions part is what causes recoil. You can reduce that a bit by using a muzzle brake but the energy is still there. Every technique used to reduce felt recoil either spreads the recoil out over a longer amount of time or redirects a portion of it.

The cause of death from a gun shot is typically blood loss. A hit to the central nervous that disrupts critical body functions is less common. For the most part KINETIC ENERGY IS NOT THE CAUSE OF DEATH with small arms for the simple reason that there is not much energy to start with. This is why a knife that is inserted very slowly with nearly ZERO kinetic energy kills just as well as a gunshot.