Interesting information for your perusal...

[sc281]

She was arguing about your statements seeming to indicate any Jo blow off the street could adequately perform in a classroom. Many would be surprised how tough it can be. You seem to be centering around the money, which was never her point.

I see. So the strikes for better pay are for the kids, then. Makes perfect sense.

[4eyedwillie]

There is no way I could be a teacher now. The kids are absolutely hopeless. The little asshat in leahs story isn't the exception he's the norm. Kids now days know nothing is going to happen to them if they screw off and they're to stupid to think about the future. BUT it's always the teachers or the parents fault no little Johnny asshat.

[Chili]

She was arguing about your statements seeming to indicate any Jo blow off the street could adequately perform in a classroom. Many would be surprised how tough it can be. You seem to be centering around the money, which was never her point.

[CJ]

CJ, I usually don't disagree with things you say, but you are very wrong. Subbing is completely different than running a classroom. It's not just having an average IQ. It's about being able to connect with the students, find what motivates them and enhance it and to be able to make, even the most boring of subjects, interesting and meaningful.

Are there crappy teachers who are just in it for the paycheck and the breaks? Absofuckinglutely. Is the system flawed in the way it evaluates and keeps teachers? Absofuckinglutely. Is the corporate world sometimes just as screwed up? Sure. You can't make a broad statement like that. Not everyone can teach and it IS a specialized skill. I find it funny (and insulting) when people say things like that. I've worked very hard and had a lot of training to do what I do. I do take it personally as it is not just a job, it's my life.



I've pretty much had a pay cut every year for the last 3 years. I'm making less now than I was then due to increases in insurance, dues, budget not covering materials, supplies, etc that I have to buy out of pocket, so yes, if need be.

I'm not here to insult your profession, but I won't be convinced it's worth the salaries that teachers keep demanding. I find it highly insulting when they ask for absurd amounts of money to teach, and go on strike when they claim the kids are the reason they do it. I don't appreciate teachers unions and their tactics. I maintain 40-55k is completely reasonable for the work involved, and I feel that the position is quite privileged with it's discretion. Certainly you can make the case that subbing and teaching are different, I didn't plan on making the case that they were one in the same. But creating a lesson plan, working with children, and most importantly educating them is a skill that is taught in a single test/certification. Sure there is time working in the classroom and developing those skills, but a profession that requires a test and coursework which can be completed in months is not worthy of 80k+ salaries and the constant complaints I see in the news. I maintain that most any graduate can pick up a teaching certification (and many do) and use it as a fall back career (I have many friends that have done that). Good teachers are considerably more difficult to find, but in my personal experience some of the best teachers I've ever found are the ones that did it in retirement, after they had a separate career of their own. I find many career educators to carry an agenda that not only do I disagree with, but I find it's often counter-productive to the future of our children.

Also, I'd like to make mention that I intentionally entered into this conversation in an attempt to take a side most people avoid. I think it's an important conversation which deserves attention. My wife has a teaching certification and is wanting to begin teaching science. She's been looking for quite some time but there's no positions. I myself have toyed with the idea of teaching as well, I do enjoy teaching, but the truth is I am literally absent of patience all together. But as a tax payer I find quite a bit of fault with the politics and the school system in general. I'm more familiar with it than most and it's a very interesting topic I like to discuss.

As for income, I'm making about 10k less than I did several years ago at my primary job. I haven't had an adjusted raise in years. I'm not bitching - but the people that pay my salary are my customers, and my company. The people that pay teachers salaries are me and my coworkers. If I make less money, you make less money - it's public sector. But I don't protest about it, I get out there and bust my ass to make the money I am comfortable with - second jobs, side work, whatever it takes. The economy sucks right now- and the last damn thing anyone in the private sector wants to see is government employees that we are paying for bitching about their benefits and they salaries when most of them not only make more than us, but have a secured pension none of us will ever see ourselves. It is absolutely infuriating.

[Slowhand]

There's more disinformation in here than in a Presidential debate.

[red89notch]

What about those kids that don't give a shit and won't do anything no matter what you do? Should teachers be penalized because a kid's an asshole? To hear the way you guys tell it, it's all the teacher's fault. That's the mentality that has put us in the position we are in now.

Example: Today was the exit level TAKS ELA test. My mother is a teacher in Southlake and I just got off the phone with her. She had a kid in her room testing (not one of her students, just one assigned to her class). He was just sitting there doing nothing. She walked by his desk and noticed he had everything bubbled in, but had not started his writing samples or essay. Mind you, you have to pass this test to get a diploma. She asked him about it and his response was, "Yeah, I'm just not feeling it today". She calls the VP-she pulls him out and talks to him, he's still 'not feeling it'. They call the parents and at this time, my mom has noticed that he hasn't even broken the seal on his booklet-he just bubbled shit in. He ended up not doing jack and turning it in knowing he was going to fail.

Should his teachers be canned because he didn't fucking try? In your world, they would be. I wish there was such an easy fix, but when you start making blanket statements like that, problems don't get fixed...they get compounded.

I have a couple friends who teach in DISD who deal with this kind of behavior on a daily basis. In my opinion these kids need to have their ass beaten(not a paddling but a real ass kicking) if they dont straiten out in a month then they should be kicked out of school. I hated it when I was a student. I still hate it. Why waste all the tax dollars and resources for pieces of shit that will be a burden on our society?

Oh, and if they get kicked out of school then they can be put on a list that restricts them from future government assistance, like food stamps.

[Leah]

If we did away with tenure, returned the education systems to the states and put in voucher systems so that teachers would have to compete with each other to provide the best education, we may get somewhere. The majority of your kids can't add the same number twice and get the same answer? You're gone.

Your kids can't read? Gone.

You teach social studies/government and our kids have no clue about the constitution or federalist/anti federalist papers? Gone.

What about those kids that don't give a shit and won't do anything no matter what you do? Should teachers be penalized because a kid's an asshole? To hear the way you guys tell it, it's all the teacher's fault. That's the mentality that has put us in the position we are in now.

Example: Today was the exit level TAKS ELA test. My mother is a teacher in Southlake and I just got off the phone with her. She had a kid in her room testing (not one of her students, just one assigned to her class). He was just sitting there doing nothing. She walked by his desk and noticed he had everything bubbled in, but had not started his writing samples or essay. Mind you, you have to pass this test to get a diploma. She asked him about it and his response was, "Yeah, I'm just not feeling it today". She calls the VP-she pulls him out and talks to him, he's still 'not feeling it'. They call the parents and at this time, my mom has noticed that he hasn't even broken the seal on his booklet-he just bubbled shit in. He ended up not doing jack and turning it in knowing he was going to fail.

Should his teachers be canned because he didn't fucking try? In your world, they would be. I wish there was such an easy fix, but when you start making blanket statements like that, problems don't get fixed...they get compounded.

[Forever_frost]

If we did away with tenure, returned the education systems to the states and put in voucher systems so that teachers would have to compete with each other to provide the best education, we may get somewhere. The majority of your kids can't add the same number twice and get the same answer? You're gone.

Your kids can't read? Gone.

You teach social studies/government and our kids have no clue about the constitution or federalist/anti federalist papers? Gone.

[Leah]

And the truth is just about anyone can teach.

Oh get over yourself. I've subbed at AISD highschools when I was between jobs. It isn't rocket science. Your average intelligence person who has a degree can teach a classroom full of kids.

Now that is a specialized skill required specialized education and that demands a premium on salary and I completely agree with that. But your average public school teacher is not a specialized skill. Your average graduate could teach just about any class.

What I'm saying is it's not this incredibly skilled profession teachers seem to believe it is worth - demanding 80k+ a year salaries. I understand and completely respect teachers and what they do for our community, but it is not a skilled enough profession to merit the kinds of salaries I see them demanding constantly 40-55k is a very fair salary for that profession in my opinion - no they don't get paid for 2-3 months out of the year. But they are making 40-55k in that 9-10 month span, which is a very sizable sum. They can opt to divide that out over 12 months or take a summer job. Either way it's a very lax schedule no matter how you look at it. Much better than any job I've worked. Public employees should never make more than private employees in the same field in any circumstance.

As far as college my experience with professors is they are over educated and under experienced. Most of them are failures at their profession, and the only job they could land was teaching the books to other people. The very best professors I had in college were retired businessmen, and previous mayors/public officials which had real world experience. More and more often in today's universities the professors have zero real world experience, and teach based on theory and conjecture - Obama is a perfect example. This is not the kind of teachers we need - they are damaging our future, not helping it. A masters degree should not make you worth more, the experience you actually possess and have to share to students is your value.

CJ, I usually don't disagree with things you say, but you are very wrong. Subbing is completely different than running a classroom. It's not just having an average IQ. It's about being able to connect with the students, find what motivates them and enhance it and to be able to make, even the most boring of subjects, interesting and meaningful.

Are there crappy teachers who are just in it for the paycheck and the breaks? Absofuckinglutely. Is the system flawed in the way it evaluates and keeps teachers? Absofuckinglutely. Is the corporate world sometimes just as screwed up? Sure. You can't make a broad statement like that. Not everyone can teach and it IS a specialized skill. I find it funny (and insulting) when people say things like that. I've worked very hard and had a lot of training to do what I do. I do take it personally as it is not just a job, it's my life.

Sooooo, you're willing to take a pay cut?

I've pretty much had a pay cut every year for the last 3 years. I'm making less now than I was then due to increases in insurance, dues, budget not covering materials, supplies, etc that I have to buy out of pocket, so yes, if need be.

[Chili]

Uh, most Americans spend 2000 hours per year working (40x(52-2)).


So you get 65% of the pay for doing 50% of the work? Sign me up!

I believe the 1,000 hours was referring to actual class time in front of students. Based on the preceding statement, and adding in professional development and required continuing education, that puts them right about at that 2080 hours mark.

"These teachers spend an average of 52 hours per week on teaching work—37 hours of required school work, 5 hours on compensated non-instructional work, and 10 hours of non-compensated school work."

That's not to say all teachers spend that much time obviously.

As far as pay, I know Leah isn't bitching, because teachers make decent money in the DFW area, along with most major cities. The teachers really getting screwed are those in more rural areas, they make like 30% - 40% less.

[Cooter]

Lots of people can recite the works of smart people. Not everyone...but most.

yeah, because everybody is an english/literature teacher

[CJ]

I'm not a teacher, nor do I want to be. There's no way I would ever want to deal with kids today. Regardless, you said yourself that average intelligence people who have a degree can teach a classroom full of kids, and that's not everyone.

What I'm saying is it's not this incredibly skilled profession teachers seem to believe it is worth - demanding 80k+ a year salaries. I understand and completely respect teachers and what they do for our community, but it is not a skilled enough profession to merit the kinds of salaries I see them demanding constantly 40-55k is a very fair salary for that profession in my opinion - no they don't get paid for 2-3 months out of the year. But they are making 40-55k in that 9-10 month span, which is a very sizable sum. They can opt to divide that out over 12 months or take a summer job. Either way it's a very lax schedule no matter how you look at it. Much better than any job I've worked. Public employees should never make more than private employees in the same field in any circumstance.

As far as college my experience with professors is they are over educated and under experienced. Most of them are failures at their profession, and the only job they could land was teaching the books to other people. The very best professors I had in college were retired businessmen, and previous mayors/public officials which had real world experience. More and more often in today's universities the professors have zero real world experience, and teach based on theory and conjecture - Obama is a perfect example. This is not the kind of teachers we need - they are damaging our future, not helping it. A masters degree should not make you worth more, the experience you actually possess and have to share to students is your value.

[Ruffdaddy]

There's not a bit of truth in that statement.

Lots of people can recite the works of smart people. Not everyone...but most.

[Ratt]

Oh get over yourself. I've subbed at AISD highschools when I was between jobs. It isn't rocket science. Your average intelligence person who has a degree can teach a classroom full of kids.

I'm not a teacher, nor do I want to be. There's no way I would ever want to deal with kids today. Regardless, you said yourself that average intelligence people who have a degree can teach a classroom full of kids, and that's not everyone.

[yellowstang]

Uh, most Americans spend 1200 hours per year working (40x(52-2)) and 800 hours posting here.


So you get 65% of the pay for doing 50% of the work? Sign me up!

Fixed.