He has a toy truck! Shoot him! FTP!

[Forever_frost]

Did I hit a nerve? Like maybe making those who fuck up paying for it instead of taxpayers? I don't see why YOU'D be upset. I would think you would want the bad cops to come out of pocket for their mess ups instead of the taxpayers and the department having to take the money out of their budget so they'd be forced to dump the bad cops.

[Cum Dumpster]

If he'd fired one round and that was it? It would have been an oops. He fired three times. That is intent. That would be like said motorist going down 3 one way streets to kill someone or the electrician also electrifying the kitchen sink and shower in addition to the pool. It wasn't a single round, it was three of them. That's 3 trigger pulls. That's three conscience actions with 3 sight pictures where he had to actively line up his shots and control his breathing and squeeze the trigger.

Three times.


Edit: Wait, a bus driver is licensed and trained like a cop? Really now? So DOT comes up to cops at random and inspects them for discrepancies? Bus drivers are taught to drive under fire and how to react to contact?

So one shot was justified or excusable, but 3 was criminal?

You have fired your weapon in "anger" (use whatever word you want here),correct? Did you actually know how many rounds you fired every time? The reason I say that is even when I am qualifying I sometimes lose count and have another round on my weapon or have emptied my weapon when I thought I had more rounds.

Almost every police shooting I have reviewed as a police supervisor, the officer did not know initially how many rounds they fired unless it had only been one round.

[kingjason]

Did I hit a nerve? Like maybe making those who fuck up paying for it instead of taxpayers? I don't see why YOU'D be upset. I would think you would want the bad cops to come out of pocket for their mess ups instead of the taxpayers and the department having to take the money out of their budget so they'd be forced to dump the bad cops.

Actually no, I just was thumbing through something and thought that was funny. You see I named it just for you?

[Cum Dumpster]

Did I hit a nerve? Like maybe making those who fuck up paying for it instead of taxpayers? I don't see why YOU'D be upset. I would think you would want the bad cops to come out of pocket for their mess ups instead of the taxpayers and the department having to take the money out of their budget so they'd be forced to dump the bad cops.

It's an interesting concept. The only problem is that no person would take a job working for someone else if they had to pay for every mistake. I doubt there is an employee anywhere who has to pay PERSONALLY for a mistake made while at work. I did not say it never happens, did not say they wouldn't get fired, did not say they shouldn't necessarily, just that I don't think it happens routinely in private or public sector.

Companies have to pay when a bus driver makes a mistake. Electric contractors have to pay when an electrician makes a mistake. I think you are kinda arguing an odd point here.

[Forever_frost]

So one shot was justified or excusable, but 3 was criminal?

You have fired your weapon in "anger" (use whatever word you want here),correct? Did you actually know how many rounds you fired every time? The reason I say that is even when I am qualifying I sometimes lose count and have another round on my weapon or have emptied my weapon when I thought I had more rounds.

Almost every police shooting I have reviewed as a police supervisor, the officer did not know initially how many rounds they fired unless it had only been one round.

Yep. We use "die motherfucker die" which is a 6-9 round burst. I had a full auto weapon, a SAW, in a combat zone where I could only fire if I was sure of my target and what was behind it. As a matter of fact, I only fired AFTER I got shot. Why? i didn't have a clear shot.

But that's MY training. You are sure of your shot, you are sure of what's behind your shot or you don't take your shot. I don't need to prove how bad ass I am and get my gun on.

[Forever_frost]

Actually no, I just was thumbing through something and thought that was funny. You see I named it just for you?

I didn't think you had a problem with it because you're a good cop from what I've seen. And...I love that movie. Ranks up there with Police Academy.

[Forever_frost]

It's an interesting concept. The only problem is that no person would take a job working for someone else if they had to pay for every mistake. I doubt there is an employee anywhere who has to pay PERSONALLY for a mistake made while at work. I did not say it never happens, did not say they wouldn't get fired, did not say they shouldn't necessarily, just that I don't think it happens routinely in private or public sector.

Companies have to pay when a bus driver makes a mistake. Electric contractors have to pay when an electrician makes a mistake. I think you are kinda arguing an odd point here.

Really? Ever hear of a statement of charges? You break a pair of NVG's that wasn't an actual training accident, statement of charges. The Army actually tried to give me one for damage to a Humvee. As a matter of fact, after I was shot when I was medevac'd out and was told about the damage to my NVG's I asked about getting charged for them. That's accountability. We actually have to pay out of pocket when we fuck up.

Companies pay when a bus driver fucks up. Electric contractors pay when an electrician messes up. You know what doesn't happen? Taxpayers don't get handed the bill while the driver and electrician stays on making the same mistakes and protected, interjecting themselves into the same situations over and over again with legal immunity. Police departments need handed this bill and then to go before taxpayers and make the case that they deserve to have their budget restored because they've corrected the problem.

[Cum Dumpster]

Yep. We use "die motherfucker die" which is a 6-9 round burst. I had a full auto weapon, a SAW, in a combat zone where I could only fire if I was sure of my target and what was behind it. As a matter of fact, I only fired AFTER I got shot. Why? i didn't have a clear shot.

But that's MY training. You are sure of your shot, you are sure of what's behind your shot or you don't take your shot. I don't need to prove how bad ass I am and get my gun on.

We have similar training. Watch background, watch how many rounds you fire, etc. this is about someone who has decided he needs to fire his weapon. He fired 3 times instead of one. He thought that was what was needed and made a mistake. You don't seem to be catching this very fine point.

What about friendly fire? I have seen the A-10 firing footage of a pilot who killed over a dozen British soldiers in a friendly fire incident. He made a mistake. He was told to stay on post and not return to base. He is way better trained than the average officer.

So what if you decide to fire and you make a mistake and hit someone in background or the person you shot was a non uniformed special forces person and not a bad guy? I say you won't get criminal charges no matter whether you fire 1 round or 3 or 9.

[Cum Dumpster]

Really? Ever hear of a statement of charges? You break a pair of NVG's that wasn't an actual training accident, statement of charges. The Army actually tried to give me one for damage to a Humvee. As a matter of fact, after I was shot when I was medevac'd out and was told about the damage to my NVG's I asked about getting charged for them. That's accountability. We actually have to pay out of pocket when we fuck up.

Companies pay when a bus driver fucks up. Electric contractors pay when an electrician messes up. You know what doesn't happen? Taxpayers don't get handed the bill while the driver and electrician stays on making the same mistakes and protected, interjecting themselves into the same situations over and over again with legal immunity. Police departments need handed this bill and then to go before taxpayers and make the case that they deserve to have their budget restored because they've corrected the problem.

I have never heard of a statement of charges. Are you saying if you make a mistake and hit your NVG's (getting into a vehicle, or going in a doorway, etc) and damage them you must pay for them? If I damage my police radio and I was negligent I have to pay for it. If I make a mistake and drop it on a call, I don't. Cost of doing business.

[LANTIRN]

I have never heard of a statement of charges. Are you saying if you make a mistake and hit your NVG's (getting into a vehicle, or going in a doorway, etc) and damage them you must pay for them? If I damage my police radio and I was negligent I have to pay for it. If I make a mistake and drop it on a call, I don't. Cost of doing business.

Why do you think cops should be allowed to break the laws they encforce upon others?

[Craizie]

Why do you think cops should be allowed to break the laws they encforce upon others?

Same as Hillary. There was no ill intent!

[Forever_frost]

We have similar training. Watch background, watch how many rounds you fire, etc. this is about someone who has decided he needs to fire his weapon. He fired 3 times instead of one. He thought that was what was needed and made a mistake. You don't seem to be catching this very fine point.

What about friendly fire? I have seen the A-10 firing footage of a pilot who killed over a dozen British soldiers in a friendly fire incident. He made a mistake. He was told to stay on post and not return to base. He is way better trained than the average officer.

So what if you decide to fire and you make a mistake and hit someone in background or the person you shot was a non uniformed special forces person and not a bad guy? I say you won't get criminal charges no matter whether you fire 1 round or 3 or 9.

How sure are you about that? And civilian criminal charges or UCMJ charges?

Here's the event you're talking about. Looks like there was a full investigation.

The US Air Force conducted an investigation into the incident in 2003, but the results of that investigation were not publicly released, and did not result in a court-martial.[6] Subsequent reporting of the US Air Force investigation states that the investigation found fault with both pilots' actions in the incident, including, "findings of cognitive and physical task overload, ineffective communication and failure to recognise identification panels by the two pilots." The investigation report recommended administrative or disciplinary action against both pilots. Higher United States Department of Defense officials, however, cleared both pilots of any wrongdoing.[7]
A British Army Board of Inquiry (BoI) was held in 2004, the findings of which, among others, stated that the major authorised the lieutenant colonel to attack, but no authorisation was given by controllers on the ground.[1][8] The report was released to the family of Lance Corporal Hull and later to the public. It has been alleged that certain classified material available to the BoI was withheld from the family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/190th_Fighter_Squadron,_Blues_and_Royals_friendly_fire_incident

But this is interesting. You're saying an officer on the ground, hiding behind a car door with a rifle with an unarmed guy at 50 meters is the same as an A10 pilot during the fog of war at combat speeds. Is that what you're going for?

The Blues and Royals were serving as an armoured reconnaissance element for 16th Air Assault Brigade. Four vehicles from D Squadron, two FV107 Scimitars and two FV103 Spartans, were moving north of the main force, patrolling the Forward Edge of Battle Area. The area of the patrol had been declared as a no engagement zone to the allied forces and the vehicles were marked with the agreed coalition Combat Identification markings including orange overhead canvas panels, thermal reflectors and Union Flags.
Two A-10 Thunderbolt II aircraft of the Idaho Air National Guard, 190th Fighter Squadron were completing a two-hour mission; engaging artillery and rocket launchers of Iraq's 6th Armoured Division, dug in 25 miles (40 km) north of Basra. The aircraft were guided to their targets by US Marine Corps forward air controllers, embedded with British ground units, and flown by a major and lieutenant colonel on their first operational flight of the invasion. According to media reporting of the subsequent investigation, the flight was commanded by the major.[1]
From an altitude of 12,000 ft (3,700 m), the aircraft spotted Iraqi vehicles 800 yards north, and the British patrol less than three miles (5 km) west. Following dialogue with the FAC and between the aircrew, the British convoy was engaged by the A-10s in a gun and rocket attack which left the vehicles disabled. The British soldiers exited the vehicles, taking cover underneath the hulls. The aircraft conducted a second attack, resulting in the death of L/CoH Hull, still within his Scimitar.[2]

[Forever_frost]

I have never heard of a statement of charges. Are you saying if you make a mistake and hit your NVG's (getting into a vehicle, or going in a doorway, etc) and damage them you must pay for them? If I damage my police radio and I was negligent I have to pay for it. If I make a mistake and drop it on a call, I don't. Cost of doing business.

Soldiers and Civilian Employees may be liable for lost, damaged, or destroyed property:

Soldiers and Department of the Army civilian employees may have to pay for Army property they lose or damage. Under Army Regulation (AR) 735-5, financial liability ordinarily will not exceed one month's base pay. In certain cases, however, such as the loss of personal arms or equipment, or damage to Government housing, liability may equal the full amount of the loss. The Financial Liability Investigation of Property Loss is the administrative tool used by the Army to establish liability.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/Supply_Economy/financial-liability-inves.shtml

[kingjason]

Why do you think cops should be allowed to break the laws they encforce upon others?

You miss my answer from earlier?

John Q citizen has no duty to run into gun fire, bad situations etc. John Q can retreat and go to his safe place. LE has a duty to protect and run into a shit storm. Both parties are authorized to use force, even deadly if necessary but one can run away and one can not. That is why our shit goes to a grand jury first generally. Why is that hard to understand? We are trained to dive head first into shit, there will be errors, some training, some just negligent, and then whatever. You have to figure that out. When there are clear violations of the law, and someone has fucked up, police or not, then straight charges are filed(Usually). IE the guy in SC. Most other shit, where we are called into duty, and the shit goes bad, there is usually another element present on the bad guys part. Not always, but you kind of get the point.

[Forever_frost]

You miss my answer from earlier?

John Q citizen has no duty to run into gun fire, bad situations etc. John Q can retreat and go to his safe place. LE has a duty to protect and run into a shit storm. Both parties are authorized to use force, even deadly if necessary but one can run away and one can not. That is why our shit goes to a grand jury first generally. Why is that hard to understand? We are trained to dive head first into shit, there will be errors, some training, some just negligent, and then whatever. You have to figure that out. When there are clear violations of the law, and someone has fucked up, police or not, then straight charges are filed(Usually). IE the guy in SC. Most other shit, where we are called into duty, and the shit goes bad, there is usually another element present on the bad guys part. Not always, but you kind of get the point.

Actually.....no.

Officer Smiley has no duty to run into gun fire, bad situations, etc. Officer Smiley can retreat and go to his safe place. LE have no duty to protect or run into a crap storm. The only difference is, police are granted use of force and protections that citizens are not. Aside from some special protections and paychecks, there isn't a difference between obligations from Joe Q and Officer Smiley.