New MS3-Pro vs my current AEM ECU

[KBScobravert]

Brooks get in here hommie. Dyno thread and tuning got me to thinking more about ditching the AEM. The entire car is coming apart anyways and now would be time for me to do it. Then sell off my AEM ECU, EPM and P&H Driver.

Talk me out of my AEM and into a MS3-Pro.

Current EFI combo consists of the following on a 348ci, T76 turbo and full street car accessories.
AEM plug-n-play ECU (wired through Ford 60pin harness I built myself)
120# low impedance Trick Flow Injectors
AEM Peak and Hold injector driver (would be nice to do without)
AEM engine position monitor (can switch to Explorer sensor but not sure on timing wheel on crank....just more wires I guess)
GM LQ9 heat sink coils (wasted spark right now with the AEM ECU)
Ford TPS (fox style)
Ford IAC (fox style)
Ford IAT (fox style)
I want to run two more (one before intercooler and one after)
Ford ECT (fox style)
AEM Wideband (has output for computer input....would need to log)
AEM boost controller and gauge (has output for computer input....would need to log)
AEM 3.5bar MAP
AEM Fuel PSI gauge and sensor (has output for computer input....would be nice to log linear to AFR and Boost)
Dual speed fan (currently a ground signal actuates relays. Need same from MS3. 1 for Lo, 1 for Hi)
Autometer Oil PSI (has output for computer input......would be nice to log)
Autometer Pyrometer (has output for computer input. Running one probe but want to put in two more probe ports and switch. ECU will read just one though)
Autometer Oil Temp (has output for computer input...would be nice to log)
Autometer tach (ECU needs to have a clean signal output that doesn't need a tach adapter)
Autometer electric speedo
Autometer electric full sweep volt gauge
Electric Vacuum pump for crankcase pressure. (It is actuated by a Hobb switch at 3# boost through a relay.. would be nice to do away with the Hobb and have the ECU command it based on engine boost)
Magnafuel submerged 750 pump and E85
A/C WOT cut out
A/C for ECU to adjust via IAC

Future plans:
multiple IAT sensors to monitor efficiency of intercooler (may switch to an A/W)
multiple Oil Temps sensors to monitor oil temps before and after cooler (fan mounted and controlled via adjustable relay....would like to only use one probe and have the ECU command the relay instead)
Flex fuel sensor ran in return line

I would like to have an E85 tune (several boost and power levels) and a 93oct tune without changing injectors.

Will MS3-Pro handle the above? I am not finding the AEM to be very user friendly with too many screen prompts and key strokes. I am not a tuner and finding someone to put their hands on the AEM that knows what they are doing and eager to do so is hard to come by.

Changing the wiring harness from ECU is not a big deal for me and would prefer the MS harness over using ford 60pin.

[KBScobravert]

Another feature forcing the switch for me would be this https://www.efianalytics.com/product...Bluetooth.html
combined with my android tablet and phone with Shadow logger/dash

[Chambers]

You can do pretty much everything you want to do with the MS3Pro. Just looking at the list:

• You'll still need your P/H board to drive your injectors
• You can reuse the EPM, as it provides a 24/1 signal for crank/cam which will enable full sequential fuel and COP
• You can log just about any signal you want there are 3 general inputs outside of the normal sensor inputs; depending on your layout, you might need to add an IO extender to be able to log all the parameters you need
• From a boost controller standpoint, you should be able to reuse the AEM solenoid, and have the MS3Pro control boost directly
• AC Compressor logic is there, idle control should be able to handle the load when turned on, you'll need an output to be able to disable on TPS% or based on VSS
• Vacuum pump should be able to be controlled via a generic output, but you could get fancy and have it PWM controlled based on a crankcase mounted pressure sensor
• Wiring - You've got a couple of options, use a dedicated MS harness, or use the DIYBOB to build an interface to the OEM wiring. You'll still need to run connections to the extra sensors that you want to monitor, therefore, it might be easier/cleaner to do a new harness

As far as the E85 tuning, I'll have to defer to someone else. There is the capability to have the Megasquirt determine the % of Ethanol in the fuel using a GM sensor and adjust accordingly. I haven't attempted to use the flex fuel features, or multiple tables.

[Andy@PrimeTuning]

To me ECUs are very similar to Dynos in the Performance World

All the fancy features that look great on paper, typically don't pan out into a consistent repeatable function and causes more headaches than helps.

Not saying I can't figure out more complicated setups, but I've seen it many times over the hardware isn't reliable.

Your AEM looks good on paper (lots of nice features "plug and play" etc) , yet causes problems. Alot of people have similar results with the MS stuff (not everyone)

Why not a Holley Dominator setup? or Fast XFI ? or BS3 ? In the right hands every one of these are capable and reliable.

[KBScobravert]

To me ECUs are very similar to Dynos in the Performance World

All the fancy features that look great on paper, typically don't pan out into a consistent repeatable function and causes more headaches than helps.

Not saying I can't figure out more complicated setups, but I've seen it many times over the hardware isn't reliable.

Your AEM looks good on paper (lots of nice features "plug and play" etc) , yet causes problems. Alot of people have similar results with the MS stuff (not everyone)

Why not a Holley Dominator setup? or Fast XFI ? or BS3 ? In the right hands every one of these are capable and reliable.

Oh you are very right. They can all be headaches. The key I found with the AEM is finding a support group and a tuner willing to work with it. And by willing I really mean eager. I was lucky enough to find Seth Francis in the DFW area but he was the only one really.

The AEM is not user intuitive at all. I spent a lot of time on it and still only scratched the surface. Luckily I was able to find a lot of settings on line but lately the AEM Ford market has died off and so has their support. AEM has all but discontinued their 1400 and 1401 boxes from what I can see. No series two updates for sequential.

I built my ECU/EFI harnesses for the 94/95 plug-n-play unit and made so many changes to the system I should have started out with a generic application model.

Holley makes a great system and I can get it direct from Brooks for a good price. Plus he is literally 2 miles from my house. But it is still pretty pricey. And even though I know he will support the system and the tune, he has worked with MS alot also. Maybe we can work him into being a MS dealer too. What I can not find on the Holley is a large internet based support group.

Looking at the dominator EFI it will support what I need and even handle the P&H driver internally for the low-z injectors.

The MS stuff is centered around do-it-yourself and is very modular since the MS1/2/3 systems you could even start with a bare board. The MS3-Pro is sealed though, so any modularity will have to be done external to the case through wiring. No big deal for me. It will require me to retain my P&H driver, not too thrilled about that. Not sure why they would not have built that feature into the new box.

The MS has a huge internet support group and their email responses to my questions have been fast. And I am sure I can get Brooks to tune it. People are building Apps left and right for the MS and combined with the bluetooth it is only getting better and better. Heck I found a guy who built an Arduino Uno connected to BT and his MS. The Arduino with a few relays was able to start and run the vehicle via his Android App and tablet. How freaking cool is that?

In the end, you are right, MS, BigStuff, Fast, Holley will all work for my needs. At the same time so will the AEM I have already in the car and running. I just am not happy with the AEM support and user interface.

[KBScobravert]

Well, SHIT. Reading more and more on the Holley and I am liking it more and more.

So thread shift. New MS3-Pro OR Holley Dominator EFI vs my current AEM ECU

[KBScobravert]

Looks as though the Holley is gonna require a lot more money for the ECU and even more with all the new sensors and harnesses. But it has a TON of features and would allow me to sell my entire EFI system as a whole wiring harness, sensors, ECU, Injector Driver, engine position monitor (minus the coils), etc.

[Blackpony]

From the research I have done the Holley looks really appealing. I have been considering either switching my 95 over to something like a Holley efi system or just going with a quarterhorse and binary editor setup so I can tune and log it rather then just guessing with sct. I have plans to redo my engine with a bunch of changes and want to get every hp from it I can.

[Lason]

Ran MS3 in my Datsun but next setup will be the Holley Dominator EFI. Liked the MS3 but you really have to have a good grasp of what your doing. Its so universal that its easy to get lost in all the options you have. And when you have a question there is no support line to turn to except people on forums and they can be a bit of a pain to deal with, at least when I was messing with it. So many people with basic questions will do that I guess. Then to top it off no tuners around here would mess with it because they had no expirience with MS.

[KBScobravert]

From the research I have done the Holley looks really appealing. I have been considering either switching my 95 over to something like a Holley efi system or just going with a quarterhorse and binary editor setup so I can tune and log it rather then just guessing with sct. I have plans to redo my engine with a bunch of changes and want to get every hp from it I can.

Want a AEM ECU, EPM, Coil on Plug and sensors and wires from ECU to component for a 95?

[Blackpony]

Meh not really

[KBScobravert]

I wrote the system out on paper and here is what my needs are. The "???" are my brain's way of saying "while I have it all apart (again) might as well"
INPUTS

• Intake Air Temp
• Engine Coolant Temp
• Throttle Position Sensor
• Cam Sensor
• Crank Sensor
• O2 Sensor
• 3.5Bar MAP
• Vehicle Speed Sensor
• Ethanol Sensor
• Exhaust Gas Temp (#1 D. Header)
• ???Exhaust Gas Temp (#2 P. Header)
• ???Exhaust Gas Temp (#3 DP)
• Fuel PSI
• Oil PSI
• Oil Temp (post cooler)
• Oil Temp (pre cooler)
• Fuel Temp
• Intake Air Temp (pre cooler)
• Intake Air Temp (post cooler)
• ??? Crankcase PSI ???
• ??? Knock 1 ???
• ??? Knock 2 ???

OUTPUTS

• Idle Air Control Valve
• Tachometer
• 1-8 120# Injectors
• 1-8 LQ9 Coils
• Boost Control Solenoid
• Low Fan, Coolant (Relay)
• Hi Fan, Coolant (Relay)
• Fan, Oil Cooler (Relay)
• Elect. Vac Pump (Relay)
• Fuel Pump (Relay)

Looks like even with that I am not even scratching the surface on maximizing the Holley Dominator but it is greater than the HP can handle and quite possibly more than the MS3-Pro will run without CAN bus and add ons.

[turbostang]

wow, I don't know where to start.

I'll start first by saying, I'd rather get rid of the LowZ injectors and get some of the EV6, small body HiZ injectors. They are MUCH more controllable at low pulsewidths, no driver box needed, cleaner slow speed tune/idle etc.

Having said that, you know how I feel about that AEM - talk about overly complicated and not user friendly...

Holley is VERY adaptable and VERY robust, but very expensive compared to your other options. It has a BUNCH of user configurable inputs, and will do everything you want, including timed boost control etc. Retail for a COMPLETE setup is about 4,000$ for a LOADED setup with touch screen, dual wideband (not needed for you) etc..

Megasquirt - now days I've tuned 3 of their 4 major setups and they all work great. We did have one of the 3.57's (pre assembled)with a bad board, but they took care of it. The interface is exactly like BS3, FAST etc. The VE, spark tables etc tune exactly like the big boys. We have one that was installed 2 years ago and haven't touched it since. Stone cold reliable. Of course, my own car had megasquirt for the ignition system and datalogging - it saw 9,000RPM many times and never missed a beat. (mine used the 3.0 board you assemble)

It's tough to use the 3.0 board, as you have to make a LOT of decisions as you assemble it and some of them won't make sense. You will inevitably make the wrong choice somewhere and have to desolder some of your work, and redo it. My suggestion would be to buy the fully loaded jimstim and test test test..but, for your intellect, it's right up your alley and honestly, a fun project.

...be sure to get the autometer wideband and not the innovate. (for the MS)

If you do the megasquirt, I'd suggest to get a good quality soldering iron and an oscilloscope (you can borrow mine if you'd like, it's expensive to buy for one project)

...and if you ever have a 'problem' with the megasquirt, you put it together, you will fix it too. The jimstim can test every circuit on the board and will verify if there's a problem with the board, or if it's in the car etc.

[KBScobravert]

Ran MS3 in my Datsun but next setup will be the Holley Dominator EFI. Liked the MS3 but you really have to have a good grasp of what your doing. Its so universal that its easy to get lost in all the options you have. And when you have a question there is no support line to turn to except people on forums and they can be a bit of a pain to deal with, at least when I was messing with it. So many people with basic questions will do that I guess. Then to top it off no tuners around here would mess with it because they had no expirience with MS.

Have you priced the Holley Dominator out? I am looking at around $2,500 after ECU, harness, EFI harness, Coil harness, their O2 sensor, (1-2) 0-100psi sensors, cam sensor and crank sensor set up. If I want the LCD touch screen, ad another $600ish.

[KBScobravert]

wow, I don't know where to start.

I'll start first by saying, I'd rather get rid of the LowZ injectors and get some of the EV6, small body HiZ injectors. They are MUCH more controllable at low pulsewidths, no driver box needed, cleaner slow speed tune/idle etc.

any in particular you like? We are running 120's now with the E85 and I would want an injector that could cover both E85 (on the low max duty cycle) and 93oct (on the higher end of their duty cycle).

Having said that, you know how I feel about that AEM - talk about overly complicated and not user friendly...

Holley is VERY adaptable and VERY robust, but very expensive compared to your other options. It has a BUNCH of user configurable inputs, and will do everything you want, including timed boost control etc. Retail for a COMPLETE setup is about 4,000$ for a LOADED setup with touch screen, dual wideband (not needed for you) etc..

Right now the cost is the biggest issue for the Holley Dominator but it is a beautiful system with what it can do, control and data log

Megasquirt - now days I've tuned 3 of their 4 major setups and they all work great. We did have one of the 3.57's (pre assembled)with a bad board, but they took care of it. The interface is exactly like BS3, FAST etc. The VE, spark tables etc tune exactly like the big boys. We have one that was installed 2 years ago and haven't touched it since. Stone cold reliable. Of course, my own car had megasquirt for the ignition system and datalogging - it saw 9,000RPM many times and never missed a beat. (mine used the 3.0 board you assemble)

It's tough to use the 3.0 board, as you have to make a LOT of decisions as you assemble it and some of them won't make sense. You will inevitably make the wrong choice somewhere and have to desolder some of your work, and redo it. My suggestion would be to buy the fully loaded jimstim and test test test..but, for your intellect, it's right up your alley and honestly, a fun project.

...be sure to get the autometer wideband and not the innovate. (for the MS)

If you do the megasquirt, I'd suggest to get a good quality soldering iron and an oscilloscope (you can borrow mine if you'd like, it's expensive to buy for one project)

...and if you ever have a 'problem' with the megasquirt, you put it together, you will fix it too. The jimstim can test every circuit on the board and will verify if there's a problem with the board, or if it's in the car etc.

Well consider that you are gonna be the one tuning it. lol

You talk about the MS3 but have you considered me using the Pro? It is preassembled, which I like, even though I have sitting in my amazon cart all the tools to build one while I am here in Afg. Would be a fun after hours project. I would for sure want to build the JimStim almost just for the fun of it...but it is not used for the Pro.

I need to bounce my wants/needs for Input/Output off the MS3 and MS3-Pro some more but it is between them or the Holley. I would MUCH rather swallow the MS pricing vs the Holley but having the ability to data log everything down the smell of a fart is intriguing for me.