So here's a question for the believers...

[Jester]

The accumulated knowledge of some of the greatest scientific minds in all mankind say everything started from a "singularity" followed by the Big Bang. Walt Disney could just as easily have come up with that singularity gem in a cartoon starring Mickey Mouse in a wizard's outfit waving a magic wand, lol.

Exactly. But something started it. If it was Mickey waving a wand, you better show Mickey some respect.

[Maddhattter]

Touch'e. I can appreciate your well educated posts. I wish I could articulate my thoughts the way you can.

Edit: Hope you took no offence to that statement. I wasnt trying to be a smart ass.

No offense taken.

I do think that you're being too hard on yourself. I don't think that your articulation is problematic. You seem to articulate your thoughts fairly well. I just disagree with them.

Prolly too smart to rely on faith.

I'll agree with Racrguy on the value of faith and the lack of the requirement of being smart to have a disdain for it.

I've met some dumb skeptics, and smart theists. (Note: Not all skeptics are atheists, nor are all atheists skeptics. Generally, the two don't mix.) I've met an atheist who professed the desire to outlaw all religion, for example. I disagree with him passionatly. While I feel religion is bad, I would never agree with removing the right to have or practise it.

What makes me dislike faith, is my desire to know as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. This means that everything requires that evidence supports the conclusion. When faith is the evidence, the conclusion is indistiguishable from fantasy. This is the case in every instance that I know of.

In order to know that the things I believe are true, they must be distinguishable from fantasy. This means it must be demonstrable and falsifiable.

...No parent can make God real....

At least we can always agree on something. *ZING!*

[Maddhattter]

I snipped everything before this as you were speaking to Racrguy.

Now, to reply to Maddhattter, nobody knows which God to worship.

Except everyone who has a religion. They all claim they "know" they have the right god/gods. How do you tell which one is right?

For all we know, they may all be right.

Incorrect. God concepts, as well as religions, are mutually exclusive. They cannot all be right. They can, however, all be wrong.

I just know that a true Christian will help you when you are down. Not preach to you about what you are doing wrong or what the right answer is.

So, a true christian wants you to remain ignorant. I can agree with that.

A man that knows God will help you and expect nothing in return.

Except, if no one knows which god/gods to worship, how can they know this? He/she/it/they may not give a shit, or it may piss them off. Either they know they have the right god/gods and know which rules to follow or they don't, which is it?

We don't have to quote the Bible or argue.......we just stop and help you when we can.

The two halves of this statement are unrelated to each other. You are correct, we don't have to argue or quote the bible, but that is regardless of whether help is being given.

That is what knowing God is about.

Again, if we don't know which god/gods to worship, we cannot know he/she/it/them.

Helping and showing your fellow human being some love, compassion, and understanding.

Given that the book that expounds on your particular mythological preference is a torrid book of violence, bigotry and pettiness, There is no support for your claim that doing this goes in line it.

[Jester]

I snipped everything before this as you were speaking to Racrguy.



Except everyone who has a religion. They all claim they "know" they have the right god/gods. How do you tell which one is right?



Incorrect. God concepts, as well as religions, are mutually exclusive. They cannot all be right. They can, however, all be wrong.



So, a true christian wants you to remain ignorant. I can agree with that.



Except, if no one knows which god/gods to worship, how can they know this? He/she/it/they may not give a shit, or it may piss them off. Either they know they have the right god/gods and know which rules to follow or they don't, which is it?



The two halves of this statement are unrelated to each other. You are correct, we don't have to argue or quote the bible, but that is regardless of whether help is being given.


Again, if we don't know which god/gods to worship, we cannot know he/she/it/them.



Given that the book that expounds on your particular mythological preference is a torrid book of violence, bigotry and pettiness, There is no support for your claim that doing this goes in line it.

I dont know if I have the right God or what the right God is. i just know what has happened to me. Mythological preference is simply your opinion. it seems most of the atheists I talk to have a hatred to God, which is confusing since they are suppossed to not believe in a god.

I lump myself in the Christian category because that is how society labels me. I follow what Christ stood for and taught.

I once sat here and talked down to Christians liek they were idiots and laughed at them for following God. I mocked the Bible because I thought it all as bullshit.

Well, I found God(or atleast my God) and the Bible is the only thing the world has really told me to read and try and follow to have a closer relationship with him.
I also STRONGLY believe in aliens and do not think that one landing in my backyard will question the existence of God. Now, one may lay a hand on my forhead and WHAM I get hit with what really happened and then I will know for sure. But, the one thing I can tell you for absolute certainty is how I felt when I found God. I don't give a rat's dick if you understand it or care if you think I am nuts. been to the mental house twice now and am certified nuts, so getting called "crazy" by a stanger tickles my peepee.
Do I know what to do as a "christian" now? Nope. I try to help people when I can and be kind to others. I used to be happy to tell people to go and eat a dick if they had a problem. Now I try and talk to them and listen to their problems.
If i didn't actually find God and all of this is hocus pocus nonsense, what have I lost? It has made me a better person. A kinder, more understanding person.

Now, if you say I piss off another God because I did not worship him, well so be it. If I had the feeling I experienced given to me by a sperm whale, I would be worshipping a sperm whale.

[Jester]

No offense taken.



What makes me dislike faith, is my desire to know as many true things as possible and as few false things as possible. This means that everything requires that evidence supports the conclusion. When faith is the evidence, the conclusion is indistiguishable from fantasy. This is the case in every instance that I know of.

In order to know that the things I believe are true, they must be distinguishable from fantasy. This means it must be demonstrable and falsifiable.
:

I felt EXACTLY the same way. EXACTLY! Faith is not scientific. It is closer to fantasy than reality and that's the kicker. I wish like hell it was just a 100% undeniable fact so i wouldn't feel like a fucking retard when talking to people that ask me about it. I say I found God and have faith and I might as well have said that I have a unicorn in my garage that farts gold dust.

[racrguy]

So you are an atheist?

I said I was, didn't I?

So how did everything get here?

I don't know. I don't act like I know, unlike some people, either.

I mean, seriously? Atheism has always been one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.

Yet what you now believe isn't?

SOMETHING made this all.

I agree.

Are you one of these atheists that doesn't believe in God and Jesus

I don't.

or are you the type that believes there is zero higher power at all?

It depends on how you define higher power. If you define it as a deity, I do not believe in a higher power, if you define it as a cause of the big bang, I do believe in a higher power. Keep in mind, if you assert that something caused something else, you'd better have something that proves you right.

What exactly makes you an atheist?

My lack of belief in a god(s)

How is that rational thinking?

When you don't have an answer backed by evidence, it's best to just say "I don't know, but I'm going to find out" then follow the evidence to the conclusion, not start with the conclusion and make the evidence fit it.

I don't care if you think we were put here by aliens...........

There are people who believe this to be true, but I'd say they're just as wrong as you are.

makes a helluva lot more sense then not believing in anything.

I believe in plenty of things, each of them I can prove. Can you say the same?

[Maddhattter]

I dont know if I have the right God or what the right God is. i just know what has happened to me.

These two statements are in direct opposition to each other. If you know what happened to you and that was "finding god" then you would, by definition, know you have found god. Can't have it both ways.

Mythological preference is simply your opinion.

Incorrect. Given that your unsupported assertion of bronze aged goat herders falls neatly under the definition of mythology, and the fact that you prefer that to others, my statement is fact.

it seems most of the atheists I talk to have a hatred to God, which is confusing since they are suppossed to not believe in a god.

It's rightfully confusing. It's confusing because it cannot happen. If you are talking to someone who hates any god/gods, then you are not talking to an atheist. You are talking to a theist.

I lump myself in the Christian category because that is how society labels me. I follow what Christ stood for and taught.

Minus the whole spreading the gospel bit, and the turning parents against children, and siblings against each other. All the evidence you've presented indicates that you cherry pick what you already agree with and then claim that is what your religion teaches.

I once sat here and talked down to Christians liek they were idiots and laughed at them for following God.

Then you were wrong. Christians are not idiots. They just refuse to accept the fact that the evidence does not support the mythological preferences.

I mocked the Bible because I thought it all as bullshit.

In this, you were correct, and evidence supports the label.

Well, I found God(or atleast my God)

You, just earlier, said you didn't know if you did...

and the Bible is the only thing the world has really told me to read and try and follow to have a closer relationship with him.

The Qur'an and the Torah both state that you should read and follow them to have a closer relationship to the Abrahamic God.

I also STRONGLY believe in aliens and do not think that one landing in my backyard will question the existence of God.

Irrelevant.

Now, one may lay a hand on my forhead and WHAM I get hit with what really happened and then I will know for sure.

Incorrect. You'll only know what you've been shown. You would have no evidence to support the claims of the alien, much like you have no evidence to support the claims you are currently making.

But, the one thing I can tell you for absolute certainty is how I felt when I found God.

Again, either you know you found the right god/gods, or you don't. If you didn't find the right god/gods then you only found an untrue belief and not a god/gods.

I don't give a rat's dick if you understand it or care if you think I am nuts.

Having been a christian for years, I do understand how you feel. I also, now, can see how you're not being consistent and rationalizing things that fly in the face of reality.

been to the mental house twice now and am certified nuts, so getting called "crazy" by a stanger tickles my peepee.

Never called you crazy. So, irrelevant.

Do I know what to do as a "christian" now? Nope.

Then why would you state, in a previous post, that you do? Again, you say one thing and then, not too long later, completely contradict yourself.

I try to help people when I can and be kind to others.

This is a good thing. However, there is no need for a god/gods to do this.

I used to be happy to tell people to go and eat a dick if they had a problem. Now I try and talk to them and listen to their problems.

Again, it's good that you changed. You still didn't need religion to do so.

If i didn't actually find God and all of this is hocus pocus nonsense, what have I lost?

An unsupported view of reality that is incongruent with the demonstrable reality that gave us the means of speaking with each other via electrical devices that can only understand 1s and 0s.

It has made me a better person. A kinder, more understanding person.

Considering that all the evidence supports the prospect that you actually found nothing other than a concept made up out of ignorance, it wouldn't have made you a better or worse person. You made that change. You, regardless of the books you read or the fairy tales you believe, made the choice to better youself. In that one act, you showed that you are demonstrably more powerful than the deity concept you worship.

Now, if you say I piss off another God because I did not worship him, well so be it. If I had the feeling I experienced given to me by a sperm whale, I would be worshipping a sperm whale.

I did not state that you do piss off another god/gods. Just that you might be for worshiping an idol that does not exist. You are almost explicitly saying that you don't care what is true, as long as it feels good to you. If that's the case, you're welcome to that belief. However, you'd have to claim to any knowledge or truth, other than you feel good, so you'll just pretend.

I felt EXACTLY the same way. EXACTLY!

So, you felt like an atheist? That's odd considering you stated earlier that

Atheism has always been one of the dumbest things I have ever heard of.

So, you thought that what you believed was stupid then? Then why believe it? Again, you can't have things both ways. Either we were both atheists at one point, or you never were.

Faith is not scientific.

Correct. It's outright irrational.

It is closer to fantasy than reality and that's the kicker.

Correct, again. In fact, it's so close to fantasy that it's indistinguishable from it.

I wish like hell it was just a 100% undeniable fact

If it's true, than it is 100% fact. If it's not true, than it's not 100% fact. Nothing, however, is undeniable. Now, some things are reasonably denied, like faith, others are unreasonably denied like evolution.

so i wouldn't feel like a fucking retard when talking to people that ask me about it.

If you feel like a retard talking to people about it, than I would say you don't have the evidence to claim it as true.

I say I found God and have faith and I might as well have said that I have a unicorn in my garage that farts gold dust.

Agreed.

[BlackSnake]

Maddhattter, you defentily put on a good argument. Problem at this point is that you are dealing or trying to reason with a new Chrisiton. Jester is at a point...well its like this. You and I just met on the street and had a beer and spent a few hours trading stories. When I got home, the wife ask who I was with. Though we may have hit it off to be good friends, the truth is that I could tell her little about you. Bigger problem is that unless "you" are willing to except Jesus in faith, not even the most Godly man that walks this earth can help you.

Racerguy mentioned that it was off the wall for someone to have faith before believing. I guess he make since in his question. Its called knowing in your heart before seeing.

The Bible states it this way." Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Faith is a spiritual substance. So when you have this spiritual substance, He communicates to you a certain spiritual thing that you are hoping for which is established. Even before you see any sight evidence that it has happened.

How does this happen? I believe that its God that calls "you." And when you answer his call, you apply faith that its God's calling which moves him to move spiritually into your life. Thus we have the presents of God which can not be denied.

What many people misunderstand is that no faith, even in science, is based on absolute truth. No?

I believe it works this way. First you believe that the calling is from God. Then faith takes place to where you apply faith that the God you believe in will keep his promoses and except you into the Kingdon with salvation. Then faith becomes the substance hoped for. A daily walk will introduce a faith walk for say.

[Maddhattter]

Maddhattter, you defentily put on a good argument. Problem at this point is that you are dealing or trying to reason with a new Chrisiton. Jester is at a point...well its like this. You and I just met on the street and had a beer and spent a few hours trading stories. When I got home, the wife ask who I was with. Though we may have hit it off to be good friends, the truth is that I could tell her little about you. Bigger problem is that unless "you" are willing to except Jesus in faith, not even the most Godly man that walks this earth can help you.

While I agree that your wife does not have to believe you about hanging out with me, there would be significant evidence that you did, in fact, hang out with me. All that evidence would be independent of faith or personal testimony. We'd have the recordings of security cameras, receipts, our phone gps locations could be tracked to the same location. None of this requires faith, yet the evidence will still support us hanging out.

Now, let's set that aside, and say that there was no evidence of us hanging out, aside from your statement to your wife. She still does not have to believe you. I'd suspect, that if you have a habit of lying to her(not saying you do), she probably wouldn't believe you. However, if you regularly told her the truth, and she had verified that enough in the past, she still would not believe you based on the type of faith that religion calls for. The two types of faith are distinctly separate definitions.

What I'd suspect you'd call faith in the second scenario, is better labeled as trust based on the supporting evidence that you had not lied in the past. In both situations, the evidence supports your statement, not the faith religion reqires.

Racerguy mentioned that it was off the wall for someone to have faith before believing.

I don't believe that's what he said, but if he did I'd have to disagree with him here, as faith, in the religious context, is defined as believing without evidence. If you have faith, you believe. You can't have faith first.

I guess he make since in his question. Its called knowing in your heart before seeing.

That's the problem I have with faith. If you can't use it to demonstrably distinguish it carries no utility and is worthless. Also, calling it "knowing in your heart" is allegory. It's basically stating that you "know" something that you, in fact, don't know. You "know" something you only believe to be true.

The Bible states it this way." Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

Problem with using the bible to support belief in the Abrahamic god, is that you must first show that the Abrahamic god, in the context of christianity, already exists. If you don't start with showing that Yahweh exists in the christian context, then the book is meaningless because the divine authority that is supposed to be it's support is not present.

Faith is a spiritual substance. So when you have this spiritual substance, He communicates to you a certain spiritual thing that you are hoping for which is established. Even before you see any sight evidence that it has happened.

In order to say something is spiritual, you must first define spiritual, then you must show that the spiritual quality exists. Unfortunately, spiritual is such a vague term, it can mean nearly anything that cannot be immediately explained.

How does this happen? I believe that its God that calls "you." And when you answer his call, you apply faith that its God's calling which moves him to move spiritually into your life. Thus we have the presents of God which can not be denied.

I disagree with your belief, but you're welcome to them. It's when your beliefs are stated as fact, or truth, that I will actually argue them.

However, if you'd like me to expound on why I disagree with your belief, let me know. I'd be glad to have that discussion.

What many people misunderstand is that no faith, even in science, is based on absolute truth. No?

No. Faith is not based on truth at all. It's based on a priori assertions. While I agree that a primary philosophy of science is that it may not have the absolute truth and may always be wrong with the introduction of new evidence, the answer science posits is the the answer that best fits all the evidence. I'd challenge anyone to show an instance where the scientific community suddenly dropped the methodological naturalistic hypothesis for a supernatural one.

I believe it works this way. First you believe that the calling is from God. Then faith takes place to where you apply faith that the God you believe in will keep his promoses and except you into the Kingdon with salvation. Then faith becomes the substance hoped for. A daily walk will introduce a faith walk for say.

Right. Your final statements here illustrate my problem with religion. Religion requires that you believe the conclusion first, and only look for the evidence that supports your claim. Skepticism requires capability to follow the evidence to the conclusion.

[The King]

I felt EXACTLY the same way. EXACTLY! Faith is not scientific. It is closer to fantasy than reality and that's the kicker. I wish like hell it was just a 100% undeniable fact so i wouldn't feel like a fucking retard when talking to people that ask me about it. I say I found God and have faith and I might as well have said that I have a unicorn in my garage that farts gold dust.

Have no misgivings about confessing your faith to others.

Matthew 10:32 (KJV)
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

[Jester]

Oh dear God. lol. Well guys, you can argue this all day and we can all be wrong. One way to find out......fucking die. And you may get an answer, but the answer you get may have depended on what you did in this life. I'm gonna take my chances with following God. I wish you good luck in your choices.

[racrguy]

oh dear god. Lol. Well guys, you can argue this all day and we can all be wrong. One way to find out......fucking die. And you may get an answer, but the answer you get may have depended on what you did in this life. I'm gonna take my chances with following god. I wish you good luck in your choices.

uncle!

[Jester]

uncle!

lol, seriously

[Maddhattter]

Oh dear God. lol. Well guys, you can argue this all day and we can all be wrong.

I agree that we could all be wrong. However, actual evidence supports my hypothesis.

One way to find out......fucking die.

I disagree. I'd posit that there is no reason that, if something exists, it cannot be demonstrated, just like everything else we know to exist. Your continuing reliance on unsupported assertions does not support either your supernatural sycophancy, nor your current assertion on an unrepeatable or falsifiable test.

And you may get an answer, but the answer you get may have depended on what you did in this life.

While possible, it's unlikely.

I'm gonna take my chances with following God. I wish you good luck in your choices.

Right. This is how the truth is discovered. We just pick a random answer because it feels good, and then just pretend that it's the best.

You've exhibited nearly every quality that you have claimed not to in this thread.

Based on your responses in this thread, you really could have just summed up your entire post with "If you won't let me win, I'm just going to take my ball and go home!"

[BlackSnake]

Oh dear God. lol. Well guys, you can argue this all day .

Actually its been a decient conversation.