So here's a question for the believers...

[racrguy]

I understand exactly what you are saying about the events you are talking about. I do not know if he did those things or, if he did, why. I wasn't there. Bible was written by humans and edited by humans. Wish I could have seen the original version and had the power to understand it.

Then why do you believe what the bible says when you don't even know if it's true or not? You must, given what you've stated you believe

Where did our species come from? what was the very first speck we all evolved from? and you may be very right......death may be the only thing we have to look forward to. I hope there is more, but there may not be.

I gave you a pretty decent resource to begin your exploration of these questions, for me to explain them to you would take; 1) far too much of my time, 2) I'm not an authority on the subject, so the best I'd be able to do would be to spoon feed you the information for you to read yourself, and 3) I'm not a teacher. I once thought like you, and I spent a long time thinking, reading, and evaluating concepts and information.

Give me some examples about a lot of different things you might believe.

I believe the sun will continue to rise and set for the next ~5 billion years or so. I believe that if I don't go to work in 6 hours I'll get in trouble. I do not believe in a grand design to life, and that it can be snuffed out rather quickly by any one of a myriad of methods. But we aren't talking about what I believe, we're talking about what you believe. You need to think about what you're saying before you say it because it doesn't make sense and you contradict yourself in almost every post you make.

[racrguy]

that quote is the EXACT opposite of what I have felt as a believer. Becoming a believer does not even begin to get rid of thought. It has made me question everything far more. Once you have faith, it seems as it is a constant never ending cycle of it being tested.

You missed the point of that statement.

[Jester]

Then why do you believe what the bible says when you don't even know if it's true or not? You must, given what you've stated you believe.

i don't 100% believe what the Bible says.......like I have stated all along. You seem to think you have to believe it or not. it has been translated several times and edited several times. It is an interesting book and from what I have been told, the way to get closer to God.......hasn't really helped.

I gave you a pretty decent resource to begin your exploration of these questions, for me to explain them to you would take; 1) far too much of my time, 2) I'm not an authority on the subject, so the best I'd be able to do would be to spoon feed you the information for you to read yourself, and 3) I'm not a teacher. I once thought like you, and I spent a long time thinking, reading, and evaluating concepts and information..

to say you thought like me is a very generalized statement once again lumping all christians into the same category as if they all believe the exact same. I believe in God and Jesus.......anything other than that, not sure exactly what to believe....so i put my faith into what i have felt and that is God/Jesus.

I believe the sun will continue to rise and set for the next ~5 billion years or so. I believe that if I don't go to work in 6 hours I'll get in trouble. I do not believe in a grand design to life, and that it can be snuffed out rather quickly by any one of a myriad of methods.

take your last sentence as a good example of how a statement can be hard to understand. It seems like you are saying that life can be snuffed out quickly.......but, by the way it is typed, it also looks like you don't believe it can be snuffed out quickly.

But we aren't talking about what I believe, we're talking about what you believe..

well, that makes it kinda boring. you attack what i believe but do not give any indication of what you think the truth is? For all i know, you may think Captain Crunch is your God.......you have said you are an atheist but left it at that.

You need to think about what you're saying before you say it because it doesn't make sense and you contradict yourself in almost every post you make.

no, i really don't contradict myself. you just try your damnedest to make it that way. you are too busy trying to 1)lump me into the "all christians" category 2) come of as highly educated on the subject

the truth is, you are just as lost as everyone else on the planet as to what to follow or what the answer may actually be.

[BlackSnake]

If he existed, and he was omnipotent, and I didn't believe in him, he could still let me into heaven if he wanted to.

No more lame than your statement, but a Judge has the authority to set you free no matter what law you broke too. No?

[YALE]

No more lame than your statement, but a Judge has the authority to set you free no matter what law you broke too. No?

I can at least meet the judge. According to the bible, I don't have any input on God's decision.

[BlackSnake]

I can at least meet the judge. According to the bible, I don't have any input on God's decision.

Thing is, when you die, according to the Bible, you will see all things and know all things. So when you are face to face with him (meet him) your only input would be, "I screwed up, huh?"

[Maddhattter]

As we all know, the only real evidence is the eye whitness accounts that knew Jesus.

Incorrect. We don't know that there ever were eye witnesses of Jesus, as there is no extra-biblical evidence for his existence. We don't even have evidence that the author's of the books of the bible were present during the time Jesus was supposed to be alive.

Now, these were not the smartest people in the world at the time, which is why I do not put a lot of "faith" into the Bible. I read it and that is about it. Also a big reason why I do not go to church or put myself in any particular christian area. I claim to be a Christian because when I found God and Jesus, it was as real to me as anything I have ever known. It was as real to me as the air I breathe.......which I have also not seen but know it is there.

As I've stated previously, I don't care what you believe. You're welcome to believe any nonsense you want. When you claim to know things, that's when I start asking, what are apparently, the hard questions.

On a second note, air can be tested for and demonstrated. You, in no way, have to rely on arguments from incredulity to support the existence of air. Asserting that you found anything supernatural, without actual evidence is nothing more that an argument from incredulity.

So, I(me personally) do not need one shred of proof that what I know to be real to me exists.......because of my faith that it is real.

Except we share the same reality. Things that exist, do so independently of either of us. Something cannot actually be real to one of us and not the other, as it would not actually be real.

You can simply call it ignorance.

I don't simply call it ignorance. I never have. It's an argument from ignorance. Look it up, as I'd prefer not to repeat the explaination.

Don't care. I do, however, enjoy wondering and seeking what else may be out there and what else may be the truth.

If something else may be the truth, why assert the option that has no supporting evidence?

I believe I know the truth. I also understand that people believed the earth to be flat at one point.

The difference between the two is that, pre-Aristotle, people were justified in believing the earth was flat, as all the evidence they had supported that claim. You're claim of a supernatural entity has none, beyond your assertions that it causes happy feelings.

Until the day I meet my maker, or there is nothing, or any other inifinite possibilities presents itself before me, I will not know.

Yet, you just claimed to know.

Another issue illustrated here, is that if you feel that you cannot know the truth, there can be no rational justification for looking for it. It seems, by your philosophical statements, that all you care about is what makes you feel good.

To explain this in an extremely easy to follow way, let me put it like this. I find Guiness Draught to be the absolute best beer on the planet. I may be wrong. There are lots of other beers out there that claim to be the best, but I have faith that mine is the best, because to me, it is. Until a more beautiful beer comes along and completely changes my mind about my beer, I will be faithful to my beer. I will enjoy trying other beers from time to time, but I have my doubts that any beer will be better than my beer. I will wait patiently and enjoy my beer until you hand me a better beer.......and then I shall remain faithful to that beer until someone finds me a better beer.

Except, in your analogy here all of the claims are about personal preferences and opinions. There are no claims to knowledge or truth. If all you'd have stated is what you believe, not what you assert to know, I think this conversation would have been drastically different.

[Maddhattter]

The best option is to display the entire parable, rather than your assertions about it. That way the reader can understand for themselves.

Actually, the best option would be to show the entire chapter, so that the parable and it's surrounding statements would maintain their proper context. Also, I wouldn't just clip what I claim to be the parable, asserting that is the parable in an attempt to taint the reader's perception.

Wonder why that concept wasn't employed in your albeit already bloated postings?

Because, I had no idea that I did not possess the only copy of the manuscript. I was too thorough to miss any. How did you get your hands on one!?

Curse you, The King. You've foiled my plans. I'd have gotten away with it, too. If it weren't for you and that blasted dog!!

My statement of "nice try" stands.

You still assert it, but it doesn't make it any less meaningless.

Luke 19:11-28 (KJV)

On a serious note, I would never recommend anyone read one chapter of the bible. I would encourage everyone to read the entire thing. It's the best tool for creating atheists.

[Maddhattter]

Hey Maddhatter. I was breezing through some of this mess and wanted to comment on the verses about blaspheme that you don't seem to understand.

When ever you hear about the unpardonable sin in the Bible, it always refers to the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Its really simple and probably one of the most misunderstood parts.

I know the only example directly given in the bible is blasphemy of the holy spirit. That doesn't mean that is the only way. All I'm doing is pointing out the existance of an unforgivable sin.

When the Bible says that blaspheme against God, it really is simple. It takes what to be saved? 1st, "believe" in him. If you blaspheme God, then you are denying his existence. How can you be saved by whom you do not believe? Thats the only reason its unpardonable

I can forgive anyone, for any reason or no reason at all. Regardless of if they know or believe if I exist. If god can't do that, I would be more capable than god.

[Maddhattter]

riiiiiiiiight......and once again, you avoid me asking you to clarify what you believe. Hatter has done the same.

Incorrect. I have not only answered your questions, but explicitly invited more. You would know this, if you'd bother to read my responses to you.

Guys, what you dont seem to grasp is honestly how ignorant the two of you look for thinking that maybe you could actually understand anything God did......if, in fact, God is real.

I'm looking ignorant because I can read and comprehend what I'm reading? This statement is ludicrous. At least now I know why you can't seem to grasp any of the points I've made...

I am the one sitting here saying I don't have the answers, just faith.

Incorrect. You've stated several times about what you know and what is the truth, with admittedly no evidence to support it. That is explicitly stating you have the answers.

You are actually arguing like you have the answers.

Incorrect. I don't have to have a better hypothesis to know that yours, based on the currently available evidence, is untrue.

Well, you don't have jack shit.

Incorrect. We have the mountains of failed religions, and the fact that every time science and religion have clashed, science has always prevailed. These are both huge supporting evidences that religion and the supernatural are not true.

You have speculation. You have theories. You have unanswered questions.

Agreed. That's what science is. It starts with speculation, otherwise known as a hypothesis. When evidence supports the hypothesis, it is relabeled to theory. It is then presented to journals to be peer reviewed and, if possible, proven wrong. Until it is proven wrong, if it ever will be, it is a theory. Scientists want there to always be more unanswered questions. Searching for the answers is what they love doing, and how they pay their bills. So, for science there are no problems here.

Religion has only ever had speculation and unanswered questions.

So, please, enlighten me as to what you think might be the answer as to why we are here or how we got here, and/or what is next?

Irrelevant. However, I'll humor you.

1: ) You'll need to clarify "why are we here"... I'll try to answer as best I can with such a vague question.

Philosophically, there is no indication that there is a why or that a why is even needed.

Biologically, we are here to ensure the continuation of the species.

2: ) You're still being too vague to give you a direct answer, so I'll just have to try to answer what I think you might have meant.

We, specifically, were born of a fertilization of an ovum by a sperm. That singular cell continued to multiply via mitosis to form the people we are, physically, today.

Philosophically, a mixture of the variable chemical levels that cause us to be predisposed to certain emotional and behavioral responses and the events that we've experienced throughout our lives shape how we interpret the world around us.

As a species, we genetically diverged from previous ape-like species about 200,000 years ago due to the pressures of natural, artifical and sexual selection.

Life itself? I don't know. From what I've read, there are a few competing hypothesis' out there. What I don't do, however, is assert I know anything about it.

3: ) As I follow the evidence, I'd have to say that I believe there is nothing "next". All the evidence supports the theory that once brain activity ceases, so do I. The very concept of "next" in this context is silly, as there is no reason to suspect that any part of my personality survives brain death.

None of the things I've stated above allow for, nor require faith. It's all following where the evidence leads. Should new evidence come to light, my belief will change. I will not, however, believe in something without evidence.

Just answer the question.

If you'd ask better questions, perhaps you'd get better answers.

[BlackSnake]

I can forgive anyone, for any reason or no reason at all. Regardless of if they know or believe if I exist. If god can't do that, I would be more capable than god.

But if he doesnt believe that you exist, how then will he ask you for forgiveness?

[Maddhattter]

But if he doesnt believe that you exist, how then will he ask you for forgiveness?

He could, it would just be silly. I would hope that he is mocked for asking something that he does not believe in for anything. Unless it's being done in an ironic or otherwise humorous manner. Then he should just be laughed at. I could, however forgive him without him ever asking me for it.

Forgiveness doesn't require a request.

[Jester]

Like I stated before, hatter, good luck.

[The King]

Actually, the best option would be to show the entire chapter, so that the parable and it's surrounding statements would maintain their proper context. Also, I wouldn't just clip what I claim to be the parable, asserting that is the parable in an attempt to taint the reader's perception.

You would, however, and did clip a single verse out of said chapter in the manner to which you refer. Might we say you are being somewhat hypocritical then?

On a serious note, I would never recommend anyone read one chapter of the bible. I would encourage everyone to read the entire thing. It's the best tool for creating atheists.

Agreed, I would encourage everyone to read the whole Bible. From my experience it has been and remains the best tool for advancing the Christian Faith.

[Maddhattter]

You would, however, and did clip a single verse out of said chapter in the manner to which you refer. Might we say you are being somewhat hypocritical then?

Nope. I maintained context, and even explained how the context applies. Anyone could look the chapter up and read, hopefully, the whole thing. I did not just assert I was correct, then, effectively, ask for popular opinion, unlike you.

Agreed, I would encourage everyone to read the whole Bible. From my experience it has been and remains the best tool for advancing the Christian Faith.

Poll results have consistently shown that people who do not believe know more about religion than believers do. This is evidences that the bible does not advance faith when actually read.

Anything can advance any faith, as faith is belief without evidence. No consistency is required with faith. That's why I rely on actual evidence, it's demonstrably more reliable.