Update on Hasan

[exlude]

Reading more into it, I believe the appellate court gave us our answer...

They didn't directly rule on whether or not Hasan can be forcibly shaved. They just said that the judge didn't have the authority to forcibly shave him and that such a decision would have to come from his chain of command. To me, that indirectly says that his commander can legally make the order.

But, he comes from the Army medical community which isn't exactly the most disciplined, Soldierly branch.

[CJ]

I'm trying to think what I'd do in this situation. I want to force shave him, but don't think force shaving him is worth marring my career.

Obviously, you call up legal first and get their opinion. But I bet they're just as clueless in this case as I am. They can't always give you cut and dry advice.

I sure as hell would be diligent about my Art. 15 paperwork to make sure he didn't get paid. Hopefully my senior commander would just tell him to shave him, that would make it easy, lol.

That's the problem with bureaucracy, no one knows what the fuck to do when someone tests them. A giant headless entity with no accountability.

[exlude]

I'm trying to think what I'd do in this situation. I want to force shave him, but don't think force shaving him is worth marring my career.

Obviously, you call up legal first and get their opinion. But I bet they're just as clueless in this case as I am. They can't always give you cut and dry advice.

I sure as hell would be diligent about my Art. 15 paperwork to make sure he didn't get paid. Hopefully my senior commander would just tell him to shave him, that would make it easy, lol.

[CJ]

They wouldn't. But the question is, what do you do to a Soldier who refuses to shave?

Normally, you Art. 15 him and take his money and time. If he continues to refuse, you continue to Art. 15 him and build a packet to ultimately dishonorably discharge him and/or confine him.

But what do you do to a Soldier who is already confined and already under court martial to be dishonorably discharged, confined, and/or more? He's got nothing more to take away.

The first judge decided that it was legal to forcibly shave him. The appellate judge decided that such a decision was not the first judge's to make. His chain of command is likely going to say it's not within their authority as, to the best of my knowledge, it's not addressed in regulation. If they really, really want to shave him...it will need to be ordered by Hasan's commander.

And that's what I figured, there probably isn't any case law for it either. Meanwhile he makes an ass out of our bureaucratic system.

[exlude]

They wouldn't. But the question is, what do you do to a Soldier who refuses to shave?

Normally, you Art. 15 him and take his money and time. If he continues to refuse, you continue to Art. 15 him and build a packet to ultimately dishonorably discharge him and/or confine him.

But what do you do to a Soldier who is already confined and already under court martial to be dishonorably discharged, confined, and/or more? He's got nothing more to take away.

The first judge decided that it was legal to forcibly shave him. The appellate judge decided that such a decision was not the first judge's to make. His chain of command is likely going to say it's not within their authority as, to the best of my knowledge, it's not addressed in regulation. If they really, really want to shave him...it will need to be ordered by Hasan's commander.

[CJ]

Unless it's otherwise specified in your contract (which rarely happens, and typically only for an absolutely needed skill set that can't be contracted), yes you are correct. You are bound to the appearance standards set forth in AR 670-1.

I would assume since he had no beard in any of his military photos his did not have the exception. And I really doubt they would make one.

[exlude]

They are a protected status, but not if you're enlisted, you waive those rights as far as appearance code if I'm not mistaken. Anyone here want to clarify that?

Unless it's otherwise specified in your contract (which rarely happens, and typically only for an absolutely needed skill set that can't be contracted), yes you are correct. You are bound to the appearance standards set forth in AR 670-1.

[CJ]

I'm arguing whether or not religions are a protected status, that's it.

I'm with Don and Mardyn in my opinion of him, and what he's doing.

They are a protected status, but not if you're enlisted, you waive those rights as far as appearance code if I'm not mistaken. Anyone here want to clarify that?

[Forever_frost]

Nope. Not in the Constitution. Can't do it. It's Unconstitutional.




Sorry, Frost, that was a cheap shot. I'm still though.

If you weren't under contract where you voluntarily sign off the majority of your rights, you'd be correct. He doesn't have a right to keep a beard. Doesn't. However this judge is allowing it to move things forward. He's already tried to plead guilty but the military law doesn't allow you to plead guilty to capital offenses.

Kill his ass. Him and that traitor Manning

[racrguy]

Islam is a "minority religion", therefore, more protected, as are other "minorities".

Yeah, except the law doesn't differentiate between minority/majority religions, nor does it differentiate between different sects. It just says "religion." Let's say you worked for a guy who's muslim, and you were one of the many sects of christianity. Even though you're a member of the majority religion here in the US, you're still as equally protected from discrimination as he would be should the tables be turned.

[bcoop]

I've never heard of anyone being forcibly shaved and am honestly not sure if that's allowable by regulation. I know you can continue to Art. 15 the fuck out of them though.

Nope. Not in the Constitution. Can't do it. It's Unconstitutional.




Sorry, Frost, that was a cheap shot. I'm still though.

[bcoop]

I'm saying the military can forcefully shave you at their discretion, choose your haircut, your mode of dress, everything.

That's not what you said, though. See below.

No other religion would be able to, during a court martial, be able to tell the judge "Not shaving, can't make me, fuck you."

The guy obviously has SOME right to keep his beard, in order for the new judge to overturn the order to shave and allow him to keep it. That whole deal was a stall tactic from the get go. He knew damn well what he was doing when he did it.

[exlude]

I've never heard of anyone being forcibly shaved and am honestly not sure if that's allowable by regulation. I know you can continue to Art. 15 the fuck out of them though.

[Forever_frost]

We aren't talking about basic training. We are talking about court proceedings. So again, no. Not to my knowledge anyways.

I'm saying the military can forcefully shave you at their discretion, choose your haircut, your mode of dress, everything. When you sign up or in this fucktard's case, get a commission, you grant the military the authority to do this. It would be nothing to hold his ass down and dry shave him. Nothing at all.

[bcoop]

Actually, it happens quite a bit. Unless you get a shaving profile, you HAVE to shave. Have to. No discussion, you're going to do it. To refuse is a violation of the UCMJ and they can and will hold your ass down and shave you. It was done in Basic.

We aren't talking about basic training. We are talking about court proceedings. So again, no. Not to my knowledge anyways.