Don't ask Don't Tell is dead...

[GSRGuy94]

Fair enough, you have the right to your opinion.

[CexMashean]

Fair enough, you have the right to your opinion.

opinions supported by fact > opinions supported by hopes and dreams

[GSRGuy94]

Well his opinion is that no Muslims should serve in the military at all... I'd say that there are far more Muslims that fight for this country without problem than there are those that sabotage missions and commit treason. So I'm not exactly sure why you think his opinion is supported and mine isn't.

[SMEGMA STENCH]

Yale! I'd like a reply to my statement please.

[Vertnut]

Well his opinion is that no Muslims should serve in the military at all... I'd say that there are far more Muslims that fight for this country without problem than there are those that sabotage missions and commit treason. So I'm not exactly sure why you think his opinion is supported and mine isn't.

You're playing the odds, and I've already been proven right. So...1 out of 1000 are good? It only takes one, which has already happened. How many have opted out of the war or complained about having to fight their muslim brothers?

[GSRGuy94]

You're playing the odds, and I've already been proven right. So...1 out of 1000 are good? It only takes one, which has already happened. How many have opted out of the war or complained about having to fight their muslim brothers?

I think you must mean 1 out of 1,000 are bad?

[Vertnut]

I think you must mean 1 out of 1,000 are bad?

Freudian slip...1 out of a 1000 bad.

[GSRGuy94]

Gotcha. My point is, that it's easy to point fingers and group everyone in a certain demographic together when you aren't part of that demographic. If the tables were turned and it was a small sect of white/Christian people causing the problems that a small sect of Arab/Muslims are causing now, would you be ok getting thrown in with that group as a potential "bad egg?"

[Vertnut]

Gotcha. My point is, that it's easy to point fingers and group everyone in a certain demographic together when you aren't part of that demographic. If the tables were turned and it was a small sect of white/Christian people causing the problems that a small sect of Arab/Muslims are causing now, would you be ok getting thrown in with that group as a potential "bad egg?"

And my point is that Americans aren't doing it! What is so tough to understand? By their muslim religion (based on the Koran), their mission is to rid the world of "infidels". That covers EVERY LIVING THING that is not muslim.

[exlude]

And my point is that Americans aren't doing it! What is so tough to understand? By their muslim religion (based on the Koran), their mission is to rid the world of "infidels". That covers EVERY LIVING THING that is not muslim.

Hussan was American, so I'm not sure you're right on "Americans aren't doing it".

I've had some great Muslim soldiers and a great Muslim 1SG. Not to say I'm wholly comfortable with the idea initially. Historically, there have been more blue on blues by your average Christian/No religious preference soldiers than there have been Muslim soldiers.

*edit: I think I misunderstood what you meant by "Americans aren't doing it", so nevermind.

[GSRGuy94]

All I had to do was Google "Koran infidel," and this was the 2nd link to come up.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9801&CATE=1426

Islam is a fourteen-hundred years old way of life. One simply can't take the scripture of Islam, which is the Qur'an (also spelled Koran), and make sweeping generalizations about the religion, particularly when one lacks the qualifications to interpret the Qur'an.

The Qur'an makes reference to different groups of non-Muslims. First, the Qur'an recognizes the natural diversity of humanity, "O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things)." (Qu'ran, 49:13)

There is also the recognition that human beings are religiously and ethnically diverse, "For, had God so willed, He could surely have made you all one single community; however, He lets go astray him that wills [to go astray], and guides aright him that wills [to be guided]; and you will surely be called to account for all that you ever did!" (Qur'an, 16:93)

What then does the Qur'an say about "infidels?" First, what does the term infidel mean? It is not a Qur'anic term. It is a term that Christians have historically applied to non-Christians, particularly Muslims. Christian doctrine simply did not recognize the legitimacy of Islam. Hence, Muslims were "infidels," and usually placed in the same category as "pagans" and "savages."

The Qur'an speaks of "kuffar," or those who disbelieve, or cover up the truth, or deny the truth of God and His messengers. However, it is incorrect to translate "kafir" as infidel. The Qur'an also does not label all non-Muslims as kuffar, or unbelievers.

The Qur'an talks about a group of non-Muslims called "Ahl al-Kitab," or People of Scripture. These are people who have received divine revelation, particularly Christians and Jews. Therefore, the Qur'an automatically recognizes previous Abrahamic faiths and accords special status to the adherents of Christianity and Judaism. What is ironic is that Christian and Jewish doctrine makes no provision for the recognition of Islam; however, Islam recognizes both Christianity and Judaism as divinely-revealed religions. But it is Islam that is always accused of intolerance!

The Qur'an is the culmination of the Abrahamic tradition. Thus, Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the completion of God's message to humanity. Muslims also believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original form since its revelation over 1400 years ago. Unlike the Bible, the Qur'an has not been altered by human hands. For Muslims, this is a miracle and proof of God's concern for humanity.

Let's look at one of the most misunderstood passages of the Qur'an:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out..."

Most people usually only quote the first part.

Here's the entire passage:

"And fight in the cause of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from where they drove you out and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque (in Makkah) until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the reward of the unbelievers. But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors." (Qur'an, 2:190-192)

Let's look at the interpretation of the above verses. First, examine the historical context. These verses were revealed at a time when Islam was under siege, when the small Muslim community was fighting for its very existence against powerful polytheists. The biography of the Prophet Muhammad, Allah bless him and give him peace, makes it very clear that the Prophet preached peacefully for the first 13 years of his mission. He left Mecca for Medina to make a new start. Even when the polytheists in Mecca were persecuting Muslims and looting their houses, the Prophet hesitated to fight. He only took up arms when God gave him permission:

"Permission (to fight) is given to those upon whom war is made because they are oppressed, and most surely Allah is well able to assist them." (Qur'an, 22:39)

So like I said, and if you bother to read that passage, the Koran doesn't say to kill everybody that isn't Muslim. It says to defend yourself from those that persecute you. It is the Muslim extremists that bend the Koran to their individual beliefs. Sounds awfully familiar... And before you ask, no I am not Muslim. And I'm not gay either.

[Vertnut]

All I had to do was Google "Koran infidel," and this was the 2nd link to come up.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=7&ID=9801&CATE=1426

So like I said, and if you bother to read that passage, the Koran doesn't say to kill everybody that isn't Muslim. It says to defend yourself from those that persecute you. It is the Muslim extremists that bend the Koran to their individual beliefs. Sounds awfully familiar... And before you ask, no I am not Muslim. And I'm not gay either.

There are a shitload of muslim extremists' that interpret that by butchering all walks of life. Remember when they knocked our buildings down? The cheers from muslims world-wide? I'm still thinking you're a muslim with a little "sugar in your tank"...We can argue this all week long, but you won't change my mind.

By the way, when the REAL congress comes in next month, anything can (and might) change.

[GSRGuy94]

Obviously nothing is going to change your mind. Doesn't defeat my point though.

[Vertnut]

Obviously nothing is going to change your mind. Doesn't defeat my point though.

Most people change when they get a little older. Jimmy Carter changed my mind, and Obama has confirmed that I was right back then.

[YALE]

No it won't affect that much. Except perhaps the lives of those serving. Are we to have segregation in the military now? I have every right not to want a gay man being able to look at me in the shower/changing room/whatever. No woman would want to shower with random straight men, so why should she have to shower with some dike that might be interested in her? Guess our kenyan friend just doesn't care what repercussions his actions have on others. After all, he's not in the military, right? He's nothing but a fraud. For being a "muslim" he sure is tolerant of gays.

Yale! I'd like a reply to my statement please.

First of all, everyone agrees that gays are already in the military, right? Sounds like every person in the military has most likely already showered with, and slept in the same room with a gay. WTF does this change about that?

SIDE BAR: Were you on the old board?