SpaceX just made history.

[BLAKE]

Funny you say that but I built a pool about 8 years ago that had something like that at the far end as seen from inside of the house.




You do not see what is going on here. I do business to make a profit. SpaceX is not in the business of making a profit and you can not compete with that business model as long as fools are willing to continue funding it.

What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken?

[svauto-erotic855]

What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken?

Chicken? Do you mean that I would be afraid of knowingly taking money that I know that I have no chance of repaying then the answer is "YES".


Edit: I will cut you a deal. Give me 450 billion of your own dollars and I will build you a black phallic symbol on the far side of the moon and will do so with machines designed and built before most of us here were even born.

[Gasser64]

...of the current high risk low yield capital environment that we have dwelled in for over a decade now.

What do you attribute this to? And would you say that being in this state, would pretty much create a bear market during such a 10 year period?

I would not hold my breath waiting......

If I recall corectly you are a numbers guy so crunch some numbers and see how many of their cheap cars they would have to sell each year to even cover their monthly losses.

Isn't this the year that GM, Ford, and a few others are going to be releasing their own full electric vehicles?

[Broncojohnny]

What do you attribute this to? And would you say that being in this state, would pretty much create a bear market during such a 10 year period?

The opposite, easy credit has always done the exact opposite. It enables risk taking. The challenge the Federal Reserve has on its hands now is letting the air out of the balloon in a controlled manner. That is why they are announcing rate hikes six months in advance.

There will be a point where all of this funding for these companies evaporates though, at some point people realize that the risk of funding Tesla is not worth the risk. The minute that Amazon or Tesla are judged like any other publicly traded company is the minute the shit hits the fan.

[Sgt Beavis]

Isn't this the year that GM, Ford, and a few others are going to be releasing their own full electric vehicles?

GM released the Bolt which has 238miles of range
The next gen Nissan Leaf is expected to have over 200 miles of range.
The Tesla Model 3 should have 215 miles of range at a minimum. There are expected to be versions with a larger battery and much longer range.
The 2017 BMW i3 got a new battery and has 120 miles of range but you can also buy it with a range extending engine.
Ford soldiers on with the Focus electric. Which doesn't have much range. To my knowledge, they don't yet have an official car in the works with a range over 200 miles.
Porsche has an electric 911 and 4 door sedan in the works.
Audi has several electrics coming.
VW has 5 fully electric vehicles coming from next year to 2022 when the electric Microbus is expected.

[Gasser64]

Audi has several electrics coming.

Too many potential comments, I'll go with this:

Hopefully the electric motor is so awesome that even audi can't fuck it up. That's probably what they're banking on.

[juiceweezl]

Gas is under 2 bucks a gallon. Don't expect any major breakthroughs in electric as long as that's the case. As Al said, so much of this technology is propped up with free money and tax credits. It's all bullshit.

[Ruffdaddy]

Gas is under 2 bucks a gallon. Don't expect any major breakthroughs in electric as long as that's the case. As Al said, so much of this technology is propped up with free money and tax credits. It's all bullshit.

I would still expect advancements in battery tech which will ultimately be the key tech that drives a step change in electric car performance. This is because everyone wants improved battery tech (consumer electronics, automotive, aerospace...etc).

But new battery tech comes along very slowly and is obviously a huge safety concern.

[svauto-erotic855]

I would still expect advancements in battery tech which will ultimately be the key tech that drives a step change in electric car performance. This is because everyone wants improved battery tech (consumer electronics, automotive, aerospace...etc).

But new battery tech comes along very slowly and is obviously a huge safety concern.

Battery techs 1st limitation is physics, its other limitations are safety, cost, packaging, and environmental to name a few. There is not even a theoretical model for a battery that would be even close to the energy density of any carbon fuel and there never will be.

[Ruffdaddy]

Battery techs 1st limitation is physics, its other limitations are safety, cost, packaging, and environmental to name a few. There is not even a theoretical model for a battery that would be even close to the energy density of any carbon fuel and there never will be.

And your point? I think everyone already knows this, but it still has nothing to do with the concept that there will maintain a push for continued battery development.

And comparing just energy densities between batteries and hydrocarbons is stupid. Gasoline does not allow for regenerative breaking, fuel systems and the difference in motor size alone will heavily shift the comparative relationship.

Like I said, you've proven to me that you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you started popping off your stupidity on rockets. All you're doing now is reinforcing it. I can now definitively say you're full of it...youve claimed a lot of dumb shit over the years but this finally sealed the deal. You're off your rocker man.

[Sgt Beavis]

Gas is under 2 bucks a gallon. Don't expect any major breakthroughs in electric as long as that's the case. As Al said, so much of this technology is propped up with free money and tax credits. It's all bullshit.

The current price of gas is a temporary situation. Every manufacturer is looking at the long term forecast for energy production and acting accordingly. There are only two things holding electric cars back. One is price parity with ICE based cars. The other is range. The Bolt and Model 3 are proof that the price parity gap is closing. New battery tech and increased battery production are pushing a lot of those costs down. The range issue is also reaching parity as electrics are hitting that 200-300 mile range. IMO the only other thing these guys have to worry about are charging times and infrastructure.

BTW, Oil production is subsidized rather heavily by the federal state government as well. To the tune of roughly $20.5Billion. That doesn't include the huge amounts of money spent on keeping sea lanes open for oil transport around the world. Then there is the Ethanol subsidy which accounts for at least 10% of your gas at the pump (and I think we both agree that's pretty stupid).

I'm having trouble finding the total annual costs of the federal electric car tax credit. I'm sure someone else can find it but I'm betting it is significantly less. Also, the federal credit isn't unlimited either. It gets phased out after a certain number of cars are built by the manufacturer.

There were also loan guarantees for electric car companies. Those only cost the Feds if the manufacturer defaults on the loan. Fisker famously did exactly that. Tesla, however, had a much larger guarantee and paid it back after it's stock price rocketed up.

BTW, Elon Musk has said he would be just fine if the Electric Car credit disappeared entirely.

Subsidies are a fact of life for a lot of things in this country. You and I might not agree with it but we both directly or indirectly benefit from it. You wouldn't be enjoying airline flights if the feds hadn't created the air mail service to directly subsidize airlines. EVERY car manufacturer gets tax incentives to build car plants around the company. The entire military industrial complex is basically a socialist construct. The companies are privately owned but the feds, by in large, tell them what to build.

The space program is exactly the same thing but at least now they have adopted something similar the old air mail model which seems to be working well towards pushing us into a commercially viable space transportation system.

[svauto-erotic855]

And your point? I think everyone already knows this, but it still has nothing to do with the concept that there will maintain a push for continued battery development.

And comparing just energy densities between batteries and hydrocarbons is stupid. Gasoline does not allow for regenerative breaking, fuel systems and the difference in motor size alone will heavily shift the comparative relationship.

Like I said, you've proven to me that you don't know what the hell you are talking about when you started popping off your stupidity on rockets. All you're doing now is reinforcing it. I can now definitively say you're full of it...youve claimed a lot of dumb shit over the years but this finally sealed the deal. You're off your rocker man.

A hybrid does exactly what you are describing. The amount of energy being captured is so minor that it only matters when you have an extremely small storage capacity and are trying to make a sub standard design compete against a superior technology.

I feel compelled to point out that you are the only person in this conversation that did not understand what I was saying about rockets. Go back a re-read what I wrote. Maybe you will get it if you say the words out loud and very slowly.

[Gasser64]

There is not even a theoretical model for a battery that would be even close to the energy density of any carbon fuel and there never will be.

Lots of people drive trucks, which don't fare nearly as well as cars in that kind of comparison. The tesla and the leaf both have further ranges than my 87 chevy and my friend's 2009 F150. When you get into towing, that ICE range only shortens so that isn't much of a factor here either. So I have to question whether energy density is really all that much of a concern. The wife's toyota car will go 300 miles on a tank of gas. Its only a small step for electrics to do that, and according to Musk, that range is a current goal.

[aggie97]

The wife's toyota car will go 300 miles on a tank of gas. Its only a small step for electrics to do that, and according to Musk, that range is a current goal.

And a current nissan altima will do 550+ miles on a tank, refill in 4 minutes and costs $10k to 20k less... energy density has got dick to do with it.

[svauto-erotic855]

Lots of people drive trucks, which don't fare nearly as well as cars in that kind of comparison. The tesla and the leaf both have further ranges than my 87 chevy and my friend's 2009 F150. When you get into towing, that ICE range only shortens so that isn't much of a factor here either. So I have to question whether energy density is really all that much of a concern. The wife's toyota car will go 300 miles on a tank of gas. Its only a small step for electrics to do that, and according to Musk, that range is a current goal.

Once you can recharge the battery in 5 minutes and refilling said battery doesn't effect how much power it can hold then energy density will no longer matter. Imagine how you would feel if every time you drained your gas tank to near empty and re-filled the gas tank it held 0.001 percent less gas just like a battery does.