Shots fired at downtown Dallas protest

[Forever_frost]

Watch the video again where a lone cop gets killed by rushing into the situation and being out maneuvered by the shooter. Then tell me again how your training tactics should not be improved upon.

I watched that video repeatedly and the only thing the cop could have done would have been to do the same thing the suspect did. Advance into the fire. He chose to hide which is exactly the wrong thing to do. You open fire, obtain fire superiority and advance towards the target. The guy knew it and with the cop hiding behind the pillar, he was an easy target.

Trust your body armor and advance. He could have stopped it right there but cops aren't soldiers despite their love of the rank structure and weapons.

[Forever_frost]

The call for the C4 did come from the top of the organization. I know you don't agree, but in the civilian world all cannot be equated to the battlefield.

So your thoughts on the police policy of moving in on an active shooter immediately, even if the officer is alone?

I dare say that if you had seen someone actively shooting at people and you were a cop that you would have engaged him and followed the current police policy (for most departments).

Apparently some wouldn't, but they get that option as long as they never become a soldier or a cop.

Absolutely right. The civilian world CANNOT be equated to the battlefield and thus, using a drone and explosives on a suspect is not an option because unlike a war zone, that suspect has constitution protections and due process rights where the target in a war zone does not.

Thank you for proving my point.

Policy on moving in on an active shooter even with just one officer? Is that a policy? He doesn't radio, doesn't figure out what's going down, he draws and charges in. That's what you're telling me?

If I had seen someone shooting innocents without being a cop, I'd have engaged because that's my training and you know what? Without armor, I'd still know better than to blow him up. Hell, can you imagine the charges if I'd have taken a car and put a brick on the gas and sent it right at his position while dumping rounds at it to blow it up?

"But he was a risk to officers and had to be stopped....."

[SS Junk]

Better? Please show where it is deficient.

Watch the video again where a lone cop gets killed by rushing into the situation and being out maneuvered by the shooter. Then tell me again how your training tactics should not be improved upon.

[Cum Dumpster]

And yet we have prohibitions doing things that cops can do and our ROE's are more restrictive than what police have to deal with on American soil. Hell, we can't even use hollow points and this neat thing with C4? That would have required a call so high that it would have had to essentially come from the theater commander or higher, not from a CO.

Interesting point, we had to have a local leader with us on raids. Imagine how that would revolutionize policing. You'd have to go get a religious leader and a news team to go with you on every no knock warrant and raid to ensure that everything was by the book.

The call for the C4 did come from the top of the organization. I know you don't agree, but in the civilian world all cannot be equated to the battlefield.

So your thoughts on the police policy of moving in on an active shooter immediately, even if the officer is alone?

I dare say that if you had seen someone actively shooting at people and you were a cop that you would have engaged him and followed the current police policy (for most departments).

Apparently some wouldn't, but they get that option as long as they never become a soldier or a cop.

[Forever_frost]

Better? Please show where it is deficient. Remember, the US military has the best trained (in engagement) and best equipped soldiers in the world, and sometimes soldiers get killed.

It isn't hard to understand, really.

You can have the last word on this, I don't think you will ever get it. Maybe that's why you won't give a serious answer.

And yet we have prohibitions doing things that cops can do and our ROE's are more restrictive than what police have to deal with on American soil. Hell, we can't even use hollow points and this neat thing with C4? That would have required a call so high that it would have had to essentially come from the theater commander or higher, not from a CO.

Interesting point, we had to have a local leader with us on raids. Imagine how that would revolutionize policing. You'd have to go get a religious leader and a news team to go with you on every no knock warrant and raid to ensure that everything was by the book.

[Forever_frost]

Better engagement training to deal with aggressors who may have more tactical experience than the average flatfoot. Is it really that hard to understand?


Departments should hire you as a PTSD translator.

I believe it knowing several who've been to Iraq and Afghanistan.

I do have a lot of experience on both sides of it. I'm a class from having a masters in applied psychology and I have a severe case of it and have for 12 years. By any measure I'm an expert in PTSD and have given a lecture on it at Angelo State. Was fun.

[Cum Dumpster]

Better engagement training to deal with aggressors who may have more tactical experience than the average flatfoot. Is it really that hard to understand?

Better? Please show where it is deficient. Remember, the US military has the best trained (in engagement) and best equipped soldiers in the world, and sometimes soldiers get killed.

It isn't hard to understand, really.

You can have the last word on this, I don't think you will ever get it. Maybe that's why you won't give a serious answer.

[SS Junk]

What is your solution, again?

Better engagement training to deal with aggressors who may have more tactical experience than the average flatfoot. Is it really that hard to understand?

Oddly enough, what i find works with veterans is reminding them of their training and oath. You don't coddle them, you come at them like a drill sargent. Doesn't always worked but I've talked to quite a few very messed up veterans that were teetering and I spoke to them as a soldier, not a civilian and they came around.

Departments should hire you as a PTSD translator.

For better or worse, we're brainwashed. You can be out decades and that training stays in. I've been out 12 years and it's amazing how quickly things come to mind when a certain situation comes up or I'm playing around with cadets and decide to teach them tactics.

I believe it knowing several who've been to Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Forever_frost]

lol, maybe a brick and mortar.

his MOS was 12W (formally 21w, and before that 51W). Which is "carpentry and masonry specialist.

I was trying to remember brick but I've been on the beach for the past week so I'm disengaged pretty much at this point and running on minimal attention levels.

[Forever_frost]

They need to come up with a better way to engage then when dealing with someone who may have them out trained.


This is a 19 year old Marine. Served in Iraq for seven months as a Humvee driver. Shot two cops killing one of them.
My thoughts are police need better training to deal with a scenario that involves a shooter(s) who have military background or combat experience. A cop friend of mine in the MD area has told me within the last few years they're having to deal with more and more PTSD vets as time goes by.


I have a huge respect for those who've been through combat. It's a back handed complement.

Oddly enough, what i find works with veterans is reminding them of their training and oath. You don't coddle them, you come at them like a drill sargent. Doesn't always worked but I've talked to quite a few very messed up veterans that were teetering and I spoke to them as a soldier, not a civilian and they came around.

For better or worse, we're brainwashed. You can be out decades and that training stays in. I've been out 12 years and it's amazing how quickly things come to mind when a certain situation comes up or I'm playing around with cadets and decide to teach them tactics.

[Cum Dumpster]

Latest news reports are that he was an engineer (mortar specialist who built buildings) that came back and took tactical classes to train him to shoot and move and react to real world active shooter environments. Basically, he took fast infantry courses.

I was a Weapons Control Specialist on the F-4. I had ZERO combat training but I was in the military. My point is that being in the military, especially since a bunch of us cops have been in the military, doesn't really mean much for him and in this situation. SS was trying to say it meant something, I think.

His private sector training that any person could get for "fast infantry" was the major factor in his success. It probably helped that he was high as a kite (I am guessing) and knew he was going to die, etc. This was a very extreme case IMO.

[4king]

It wouldn't matter. And that is the danger of allowing the police to do whatever they want. If you want a great example of this in action, go read what happened when the Philadelphia PD bombed the MOVE headquarters from a helicopter in the 1970s. They ended up killing something like ten kids and burning down 60 row houses. No charges were ever filed and the mayor resigned after the PD threatened to kill him.

While I agree that in this particular situation it made sense, doing this as routine practice does not. And even when it might be justified it is still very dangerous and the police will not held accountable when things go wrong.

Yep. It's a pebble rolling down a hill.

Next step is probably eliminating police helicopters and going with drones.

[Cum Dumpster]

They need to come up with a better way to engage then when dealing with someone who may have them out trained.


This is a 19 year old Marine. Served in Iraq for seven months as a Humvee driver. Shot two cops killing one of them.

Did I ever say that the policy would ensure the cops survive or that it was perfect? Again, I support the policy to engage the active shooter immediately. It is way better for cops to engage the shooter rather than allow the shooter to keep shooting and killing people. I guess I should be shocked I am having this discussion, but sadly I am not. Please notice I am not getting personal with you and attacking you, but damn you make it hard not to.

What is your solution, again?

I can show you (or tell you about) many incidents where this policy saved innocent lives. Wedgewood Baptist Church, the theatre in Colorado, and many more. I bet it is close to 5 to 1 where innocent lives were saved by this policy. Even the recent Orlando shooting is an example of the policy, if it had been in place or utilized, would have saved lives.

[HarrisonTX]

Latest news reports are that he was an engineer (mortar specialist who built buildings) that came back and took tactical classes to train him to shoot and move and react to real world active shooter environments. Basically, he took fast infantry courses.

lol, maybe a brick and mortar.

his MOS was 12W (formally 21w, and before that 51W). Which is "carpentry and masonry specialist.

[SS Junk]

Yep, the key word is ENGAGE.

They need to come up with a better way to engage then when dealing with someone who may have them out trained.


This is a 19 year old Marine. Served in Iraq for seven months as a Humvee driver. Shot two cops killing one of them.
My thoughts are police need better training to deal with a scenario that involves a shooter(s) who have military background or combat experience. A cop friend of mine in the MD area has told me within the last few years they're having to deal with more and more PTSD vets as time goes by.

As odd as it sounds, that is one of the nicest things someone's said about me in a long while.

I have a huge respect for those who've been through combat. It's a back handed complement.