CHL Discussion thread

[matts5.0]

So why does the military even train? Are you honestly saying training of any type is a waste of time? The military practices and trains under duress and stress to condition the body and mind to react the same way you trained while under stress. Or something like that, I don't remember.
I do agree on getting in good physical shape though.

[GhostTX]

1. It is.
2. Not really.

1) Ok, so I'm not off and disagree. If you play a sport. Baseball, volleyball...were you good at the get go?

2) Ok.

[Moose242]

This has nothing to do with health. Your whole premise was pistol training is worthless because when SHTF, it all goes out the window due to panic, instinct, etc. So, by extension, taking ANY training is worthless because that would go out the window as well due to the stress. And I totally disagree.

You CCW. Can you consistently draw and hit the target accurately? Can you do it quickly? Or does your clothing get in the way and slow you down? Do you yank the trigger and hit wide? You don't think training would fix all that?

1. It is.
2. Not really.

[GhostTX]

Strength training or athletic training lead to a better and healthier lifestyle. How is that pointless?

This has nothing to do with health. Your whole premise was pistol training is worthless because when SHTF, it all goes out the window due to panic, instinct, etc. So, by extension, taking ANY training is worthless because that would go out the window as well due to the stress. And I totally disagree.

Training hones skills so that a set of moves becomes second nature. You "program" the brain to react in a certain way, without thinking. And I'll say the same thing from the other thread you pointed to, when SHTF, for most, your skill set will plummet to 50% (or worse) of the level you train. So, if I'm hitting a 3" group in training, that'll become a 6" group when SHTF. AnthonyS makes a good point about people types, but again, training, enough of it, will allow people to automatically respond.

If you took Judo, but never practice, you're going to forget all those fancy moves you learned. SHTF and boom...you're SOL. But if you train and practice those moves all the time, you'll just react. Same with pistol training.

You CCW. Can you consistently draw and hit the target accurately? Can you do it quickly? Or does your clothing get in the way and slow you down? Do you yank the trigger and hit wide? You don't think training would fix all that?

[YALE]

I want to take a couple of classes.

[LANTIRN]

Read this before going to any class, it'll be the best info you get from a real-world stand point

Good read, and accurate from my experience. I have never fired a gun at another person, but I did pull a gun on someone once on what I thought was an attmpted robbery. I am still about 90% sure it was a robbery about to happen, and if I am right then the sight of a gun stopped them, but of course I will never know for sure. What I do know for sure is I have never been robbed, and I am alive.

[Moose242]

You guys can keep wasting ammo into paper, while some of us work to better ourselves.

Why? By your own admission training is pointless.

Strength training or athletic training lead to a better and healthier lifestyle. How is that pointless?

[AnthonyS]

This is actually a fairly good discussion once you put aside the personal crap.

Personally, I don't care if you train or not, but I train, and I make my wife and son train too. Training does go out the window though when TSHTF and instincts take over. This is one of the reasons my wife has a gun with a decocker and no safety. I don't want her thinking about that but just trying to point and shoot if something crappy ever happens.

I was in the Navy for 9/11 and they decided they need a ton more MPs after that. I got to do 6 months as an MP and 6 months as my real shore job for the next 3 years. We trained with the Marine detachment on base, and sometimes a few SEALS. We did a lot of shooting too, but not as much as you really need to get worth a damn. We did lots of "training."

One thing I did learn in the Navy is when something really happens that isn't good there are two kinds of people. 1) Those that freeze up and become dead weight. 2) People that can keep their wits about them and function at a reasonable level. Luckily I found out I fall into category 2 when shit suddenly catches on fire or water is coming in the submarine that shouldn't. If you are in Cat 1, train all you like, but when shit happens you're fucked. If you try anything on a guy in Cat 2 in a gun fight or fist fight or knife fight, you will be dead. No training can save your ass if you freeze. A lot of people sadly even if they have CHLs are probably in Cat 1 and don't even know it. You will never know it until something shitty happens. I saw 3 fires on board a sub and 1 flooding. I know how I react.

The closest thing you will find to this in civvie life is a car wreck. Watch how people respond after. Some are zombies, others are checking people, rerouting traffic, getting people and vehicles in safe places etc.

Ask anyone that's ever been in combat. Training doesn't matter for the guys that freeze up. And guess what they don't get discharged for freezing up either.... the other guys just have to cover for them and drag their asses to safety. We had a moron nearly melt one of my buddies on the submarine with steam and no one kicked him out of the military. He just got more training.....

Okay so training can be helpful.... but you have to train for the right things in the right way. Most ranges won't even let you draw from a holster or pop off rounds as quickly as you really would in a real world situation, so chances are your training blows. Range practice is okay, but dry practice at home with your holster is far more valuable.

And as for pistols compared to rifles. If you are any further away than 15 yards, I'm using a shotgun. If it's over 50 yards I'm using a rifle. If you are inside of 2 yards, I will stick you with a knife or bayonet. This is assuming someone is threatening my life or my families etc. Pistols suck. They deliver weak rounds at poor distances in real situations. There is a reason the military considers sidearms backup weapons. We carry them in this country because people don't like you carrying around a 12 gauge pump shotgun everywhere.

The entire safety issue.... again training... muscle memory. If you practice it, then your chances of turning the safety off go up. If you don't practice enough, yes you will trigger squeeze and nothing will happen.

Honestly, when it comes to firearms most everyone is undertrained and underpracticed. Most of us simply don't have the time or resources to train often enough. Even the military and police are limited by budgets, other duties, and the desire to maintain sufficient inventory. I shoot more now than I was in the military but it's still not enough. If I lived in the country I would shoot and practice a whole lot more.

I'm looking for a range that allows holster drawn shooting and actual combat style shooting as well if anyone knows of one. Yes I want to unload my full 8 to 16 rounds as fast as possible center of mass if ever needed. "The 1 second per shot range rules blow." With my AR anything under 100 yards, I want to be getting shots pumped into that target quickly and CoM. Now if I know the target is wearing armor, then I need to take time and aim more. The training we rarely did in the military was useful, but repetition didn't occur often enough.

Repetition is the key. Dry practice is the only way I know to get lots of repetition economically in the city. Now if you are worried about breaking something in dry practice get snap caps, and get better quality guns......

[John -- '02 HAWK]

He's going to cry about you making fun of a learning disability he never told you he had.

actually I was just going say that trying to fix that mistake wont happen.

[YALE]

You're...

He's going to cry about you making fun of a learning disability he never told you he had.

[BMCSean]

Probie (and cobraman) do you feel your being picked on by everyone? Thats because your immaturity and your youth driven delusion of immortality are not letting you hear what experience and maturity is saying.

- The odds are that you will never get into a shooting, especially one outside of your home as civilian. Unless your placing yourself in harms way

- As a civilian you will never get into firefight that last more than 10secs. Video games, movies, tv, and firearms instructors on youtube have created a false vision of what you think a gunfight is.

- You will never get into firefight where you need to shoot multiple times through the windshield at a stationary target.

- You will never get into a firefight where you need to advance on a target.

- Since yall think DOHCTR's first link is garbage, go do some drills where you try to shoot a moving target while you are moving to cover. Your results will be just as poor as the officers, now factor in that the target(s) was shooting back, and the effects of the adrenaline in each others system.

You're...

[ELVIS]

yeah, yall just fuckin with these youngsters.

god bless.

[John -- '02 HAWK]

Seeing as we both want to be Leo, it is very possible all of that could happen.

But not as civilians. Plus taking combat classes for a job your not even in is putting the cart before the horse. With out even knowing if the cart works with the horse. Example Texas swat teaches a different methodology for exiting a vehicle than Matt Graham.

Oh BTW with all the returning vets yall better concentrate on something that makes you standout for something other than combat classes, cause those guys have better stories.

I don't remember claiming to be proficient at anything. Prepare for the worst and expect the best. If you think our scores will be poor while moving and shooting, why wouldn't we work to improve them?

Never said you were or weren't proficient just that you wouldnt do any better than officers who most have had more hand on gun time than yall. Even the competition shooters dont shoot while moving (for the most part)

I can't believe the standpoint of this board is that practice won't help you out at all. You guys can keep wasting ammo into paper, while some of us work to better ourselves.

I'm not saying that, hands on gun time is valuable (to a point). But being taught tactical ninja skills is not the same as defensive handgun course.

[Cobraman]

Thank god someone with some reason showed up

[GhostTX]

The fact of the matter is that in an actual confrontation, your "training" won't do a damn thing. Obviously knowing how to shoot is important, but having some ultra-high-speed-ninja operator teach you how to kill some fools like John Woo won't do shit.

Take the money you would be spending on that yokel's class and get a gym membership. Better investment in yourself and can lead to some great self defense tactics if you opt to develop them.

Why? By your own admission training is pointless. Stupid logic, if you ask me. Training and the further practice establishes muscle memory and you end up reacting better without thinking. It takes up to 3,000 times to build up a muscle memory and do it "right" without thinking. This applies to ANYTHING...baseball, basketball, shooting, etc.

The problem is people (cops) who shoot, once/twice a year (seldom) don't ingrain anything, so when SHTF, there's nothing to fall back on to and perform lousy. Do you think professional ball players aren't feeling stress? That's why they train, so when under stress, you perform BETTER than some schmo that never trains.

So take your "pistol is worthless" mentality elsewhere because a rifle without training will yield the same results hit-wise during a hi-stress/SHTF encounter. I'll take some neckbeard training and practice what works for me so I'll be better prepared mentally and reaction-wise.