Beretta 1301 Tactical?

[BradM]

I think he was doing that "hold it in the middle of your chest" experiment.

[Craizie]

Ended up picking it up yesterday and did a function check. It's lightweight, and i found that out by giving my nose a good pop on the first shot. Wasnt expecting that much recoil out of the semi-auto, but that's what I got for limp-wristing it.

Shot well, but the gun comes with a magazine reducer in it, which is flat out retarded. Had to disassemble and pull the damn thing out.

How....did you hit yourself in the face while shooting a shouldered shotgun?

Don't most pump / semi autos come with plugs? All the ones ( not many ) I've bought came with plugs.

[32vfromhell]

Ended up picking it up yesterday and did a function check. It's lightweight, and i found that out by giving my nose a good pop on the first shot. Wasnt expecting that much recoil out of the semi-auto, but that's what I got for limp-wristing it.

Shot well, but the gun comes with a magazine reducer in it, which is flat out retarded. Had to disassemble and pull the damn thing out.

[01yz2nv]

I’ve still got one in stock if anybody’s wanting one.

[svauto-erotic855]

The level of SVO (fake)facts in here is astounding, even for SVO. Taking the full blow of 00 buck is the equivalent of about 4 rounds from a .45 ACP. I don't care what armor you're wearing, you're on your ass as CJ said. The next shot scrambles your brains. Even taking only a few pellets is going to knock them backwards or to a knee at a minimum regardless of armor and most likely put them on their back. Half the pellets probably keeps them from getting up for several minutes. In all cases, the guy with the shotgun wins.

On the flip side, SVO please let me know if you are ever thinking about taking clothes to Goodwill. I'll gladly buy some of your old shirts as they have to be cheaper than plate armor and certainly lightweight...

The force that you feel from recoil is the exact amount of force that the pellets have as they leave the muzzle. No more and no less. If the recoil doesn't make you do cartwheels then neither will the kinetic energy in the shot string. The damage caused by being shot will make people drop but the small amount of kinetic from the shot itself will not.

I shot a man in the mid back a few inches from his spine at an angle and in the lower back of his head just below and behind his ear with full powered buck shot from an old M12 riot gun. Both shots blew stuff out of the other side of him and were within a 1/4 second of each other. It do not throw him forward at all. He simply dropped in his tracks into an odd position on the ground and didn't even twitch. The closest analogy I could come up with is a puppet that is dropped. I have shot other people as well with hand guns and rifles and most of the time they simply ran away.

Edit: I must admit that the only time I have seen someone take a shot and not still be able to run around a bit was from a shotgun.

[svauto-erotic855]

I propose a few small modifications to your experiment. Let's use a 1301, milspec 00 buck and place the recoil pad in your chest right over your heart. Now let's pull that trigger real fast and pop off 10-12 (long mag tube), so you can defibrillate and die like a dumbass. Then if you live, you can do it with a 38 spd and tell us how much more that hurt.....

Gladly. Name the time and the place but you will have to provide the gun. No semi auto 12ga that I have has a mag tube that long. I hate to disappoint you but I have done this demonstration before with an 1100 and 8 shots. I even had my GFs 8 year old son (Who was large for his age) fire a shot that way to show him that there was nothing to fear from recoil.

I am not sure how I will hold the butt of a 38 revolver against my chest and be able to fire it safely so we may have to forgo that part.

Edit: My offer to bring a bolt action 12ga was so no one could say that using a semi auto reduced the felt recoil.

[32vfromhell]

I propose a few small modifications to your experiment. Let's use a 1301, milspec 00 buck and place the recoil pad in your chest right over your heart. Now let's pull that trigger real fast and pop off 10-12 (long mag tube), so you can defibrillate and die like a dumbass. Then if you live, you can do it with a 38 spd and tell us how much more that hurt.....

Well, my 1301 comes in on tuesday....

[juiceweezl]

The level of SVO (fake)facts in here is astounding, even for SVO. Taking the full blow of 00 buck is the equivalent of about 4 rounds from a .45 ACP. I don't care what armor you're wearing, you're on your ass as CJ said. The next shot scrambles your brains. Even taking only a few pellets is going to knock them backwards or to a knee at a minimum regardless of armor and most likely put them on their back. Half the pellets probably keeps them from getting up for several minutes. In all cases, the guy with the shotgun wins.

On the flip side, SVO please let me know if you are ever thinking about taking clothes to Goodwill. I'll gladly buy some of your old shirts as they have to be cheaper than plate armor and certainly lightweight...

[AnthonyS]

I will gladly show up with a bolt action 12ga and will place the butt into my navel and fire off as many shots as you care to pay for. The force I will feel is exactly the same force I would feel if I placed a plate of steel over my stomach and fired the shot into it.

I propose a few small modifications to your experiment. Let's use a 1301, milspec 00 buck and place the recoil pad in your chest right over your heart. Now let's pull that trigger real fast and pop off 10-12 (long mag tube), so you can defibrillate and die like a dumbass. Then if you live, you can do it with a 38 spd and tell us how much more that hurt.....

[svauto-erotic855]

You do realize armor that "prevents penetration," such as kevlar, will still make your stomach touch your spine when it absorbs that energy? You might also want to brush up your google physics, you're missing huge parts of the equation. If you want a fair comparison on Newtonian physics, fire the 12 gauge off in the palm of your hand. I'll also supply you with a 12 gauge shell and a chamber to do this as well.

I like your confidence, I'd also really like to see you put a vest on and show me who's boss. It sounds like you're going to brush it off like a hard rain.

A base ball thrown into your gut has more energy than most hand gun loads and it will not make your guts hit your spine. You are seriously over estimating how much energy a fired projectile has. Back face deformation with armor is of concern but it is not a serious issue with the most common threats you will face such as a hand gun and it is nothing to worry about once the shot string has had a chance to spread which takes about 4 yards with cheap buck loads.To put things into perspective a +P+ 9mm load has about as much kenitic energy as 3 apples dropped from 1 meter. I will gladly show up with a bolt action 12ga and will place the butt into my navel and fire off as many shots as you care to pay for. The force I will feel is exactly the same force I would feel if I placed a plate of steel over my stomach and fired the shot into it.

FYI : Unlike you I have actually shot a person before with a 12ga and have had the pleasure of being arested for it. I know what it will do on bare flesh and I know what it will do when it strikes a barrier. Seeing as how I do not carry a 32 at all for personal defense or a 38 with anything other than a top tier commercial load I would not pick a shot gun for personal defense if there was even the slightest chance that who ever was after me had a tiny bit of training and was serious about doing so.

[CJ]

^^^^^ You are cherry picking your numbers. Do a spread sheet of commonly available commercial 38spl loads and show their average energy. I will save you the effort and tell you that it is about 270 with 330 being on the high end for commercial stuff loaded to post 1973 SAMI specs. Use load data from manuals from the 1960s and you will commonly see in the mid 450's with top loads.

But but, my super high velocity hand loads...


Send your complaints to the U.S. Army field manual division.

I've lost interest in this stupid ass discussion. I understand the exhibition of googling numbers and physics and hunting elk, etc. in an attempt to prove a contrary point of view for the sport of it. The truth is both me and you know you're full of shit, which is why you would never put on that vest.

[svauto-erotic855]

^^^^^ You are cherry picking your numbers. Do a spread sheet of commonly available commercial 38spl loads and show their average energy. I will save you the effort and tell you that it is about 270 with 330 being on the high end for commercial stuff loaded to post 1973 SAMI specs. Use load data from manuals from the 1960s and you will commonly see in the mid 450's with top loads.

[CJ]

No. It will not drop you anymore than it dropped the guy that pulled the triger if you have on armor and the armor prevents penetration. The guy holding the shotgun gets hit with the same force as the guy getting hit by the shot. Without armor you are dead.

You do realize armor that "prevents penetration," such as kevlar, will still make your stomach touch your spine when it absorbs that energy? You might also want to brush up your google physics, you're missing huge parts of the equation. If you want a fair comparison on Newtonian physics, fire the 12 gauge off in the palm of your hand. I'll also supply you with a 12 gauge shell and a chamber to do this as well.

I like your confidence, I'd also really like to see you put a vest on and show me who's boss. It sounds like you're going to brush it off like a hard rain while firing tight groups while you're attacked.

The truth is, in the real world if you took a 12ga buckshot to the chest, you're dead. I don't care what fucking armor you're wearing. For your theory to work, based on extensive google research and elk hunting, you would have to take every pellet in an e-sapi plate, whilst holding your hands behind your back and looking away. This shot would also have to take place short range to ensure the shot pattern did not extend past the (small) plate. Immediately after the shot, you get on target completely unfazed. In the real world, you have a gun pointing at someone. A buckshot round would rip your hands, arms, body, stomach, whatever else was between you and that vest. If by a miracle your body armor absorbs every single shot (not that it really matters if you use common sense) you're dead the moment the next round comes.

[CJ]

Standard military buckshot is 1,325 fps, 486 grains of projectiles = 226 ft⋅lbf

Hornady JHP 125 gr 900 ft/s = 225 ft⋅lbf

This comparison is in the US military field manual for the Remington M870.

[svauto-erotic855]

What I said was it would drop you, not that it would kill you. When you're on the ground, you're going to get ventilated by the guy who just shot you. No one ever said anything about energy killing you, other than it's a measure of the energy, and useful for comparison.

No. It will not drop you anymore than it dropped the guy that pulled the triger if you have on armor and the armor prevents penetration. The guy holding the shotgun gets hit with the same force as the guy getting hit by the shot. Without armor you are dead.