Lucky us! 4th amendment just got weaker.

[SlowLX]

I don't know if I am one of "those" but I would like to see some major changes in the way we do things. I'm kinda like an old 30's type isolationist in the fact I think we should keep our nose out of a lot of world affairs let those people figure out their own problems while we focus on ours. Keep our money here to help our economy and trade and keep a sstrong military just in case...

We built our empire on intervention, isolationism would require a return to a less powerful and more unstable country. Our economy is dependent on our intervention, people the world over secretly want to be American because they think we can project ourselves and our identity anywhere with impunity.

[sc281]

Add in the two bolded words and I agree. Now, whether tyranny has been the norm in the U.S. democratic process since circa 1900 is open to debate.

Agreed. I pulled the date out of my ass because I didn't feel like looking up the exact date the Progressives gained a foothold in American Politics.

[SlowLX]

Get elected? BAHAHAHA!!! I'd be in a larger minority than I am with the public!

Maybe you're right and I'm giving too much credit to our military for thinking that most would act in an honorable manner and uphold their oath.

"Let's see... uphold my oath or avoid a backhand from my superior?"

If that is truely what keeps the military on the side of these criminals, than that's an even bigger disappointment than the politicians. Where are the true patriots? Certainly not wearing BDUs, drawing down on the ones trying to restore order to our establishment.

You're still pandering with illogical statements that have no historical precedent for your argument. You're now equating the supreme discipline of the military with a malleable 18 year old being a criminal because he follows the order of his Lt or his Capt? You're also assuming the military is in cahoots with the government at the upper echelons for some purpose hidden from the American public. There are a shit ton of Generals in the last 15 years who have taken stands against the direction this nation is headed, but they're not mouthing a revolution. I guess they're criminals because they aren't carrying the cause of American liberties far enough?

[The King]

The basis of the Constitutional Republic we are founded on was built to protect the rights of the individual/minority from being oppressed by tyranny from the majority. e.g. The majority taking the wealth from the minority through the "Democratic" process circa !900-2011 A.D.

Add in the two bolded words and I agree. Now, whether tyranny has been the norm in the U.S. democratic process since circa 1900 is open to debate.

[Couver]

I left my disclaimer in there for those that don't go around talking about what they do in the military all the time. I'm mainly responding to the top 5 who post in this thread and the political forum about starting a newer nation. Are you one of those?

I don't know if I am one of "those" but I would like to see some major changes in the way we do things. I'm kinda like an old 30's type isolationist in the fact I think we should keep our nose out of a lot of world affairs let those people figure out their own problems while we focus on ours. Keep our money here to help our economy and trade and keep a sstrong military just in case...

[Denny]

I think you're underestimating how drawn to their CO's and small unit leaders the average 17-21 year old soldier is subconsciously. With out mass defections by the officer corps you won't see mass defections by the enlisted corps, because they will come down on them like an iron fist and most enlisted men who were wavering will revert back to a boot camp mentality to please their superiors without even realizing it.

You are also assuming the national guard would be called in to fire on their own US citizens first or the military for that matter. Think of all the crack pot militias over the years and how they've been neutralized, the FBI and federal law enforcement in general would be on any massive uprising like stink on shit before anything could get organized effectively.

So like I said, prove to me there is a logical and realistic way for your revolution to happen without mass defections from the upper units of the American military and government. If you try and stir up dissent in the military without being at least a full bird colonel your ass is going to Leavenworth no questions asked. The system is so entrenched into American society Denny, I honestly don't believe there is ANYTHING you or any of the other secessionists can do without help from a congressional split or Generals and Admirals splitting form the American government. Look at the last civil war even, it began with a congressional split. The American public is too fragmented and docile to do a fucking thing without proper motivation and support from their leaders. So if you're serious about wanting to create a second union or at least trash this system so bad it has to be reset my advice to you is to get elected and convince as many of your fellow congress members to follow you...take a few generals while you're at it. Because other wise if you try to do anything you'll just find your ass in jail.

Get elected? BAHAHAHA!!! I'd be in a larger minority than I am with the public!

Maybe you're right and I'm giving too much credit to our military for thinking that most would act in an honorable manner and uphold their oath.

"Let's see... uphold my oath or avoid a backhand from my superior?"

If that is truely what keeps the military on the side of these criminals, than that's an even bigger disappointment than the politicians. Where are the true patriots? Certainly not wearing BDUs, drawing down on the ones trying to restore order to our establishment.

[SlowLX]

I think you're confused about restoring the union vs. preserving its destruction. Come on, Slider, you're smarter than this. Do you really think that odds stacked against us would forever halt our intentions? You honestly don't think that people with desire would rather die trying than sit on their hands and watch our liberites, rights and freedom get raped with each vote in Congress?

If it ever happens and the final straw breaks, all that marches on DC is 7 or 8 people, I hope my massacre is televised live for the world to see... for my children to see. I'll go in asking for the removal of the elected on grounds of treason since they've overstepped their Constitutional authority long ago.

If some pussy-ass platoon of GIs want to muscle me out and terminate me, they better get the first shot and make it count. I guess whatever it take to earn their enlisted pay for the day.

Am I in the minority? Hell yes! But I'm still there. Granted, I'm all talk until it actually happens, but everyone is wrong about something until they're right.

I'm smart enough to realize that it's never the common man who initiates this shit.

First revolution - land owning aristocracy and merchant class led the charge

2nd failed revolution - Southern congress which was comprised of land owning aristocracy led the charge.

Revolutions RARELY occur without upperclass support. That is all i've argued this entire thread on the issue.

[SlowLX]

I call what do I win?

I left my disclaimer in there for those that don't go around talking about what they do in the military all the time. I'm mainly responding to the top 5 who post in this thread and the political forum about starting a newer nation. Are you one of those?

[Denny]

It takes more than desire to win a war, especially if the enemy is sufficiently motivated, such as preserving the union.

I think you're confused about restoring the union vs. preserving its destruction. Come on, Slider, you're smarter than this. Do you really think that odds stacked against us would forever halt our intentions? You honestly don't think that people with desire would rather die trying than sit on their hands and watch our liberites, rights and freedom get raped with each vote in Congress?

If it ever happens and the final straw breaks, all that marches on DC is 7 or 8 people, I hope my massacre is televised live for the world to see... for my children to see. I'll go in asking for the removal of the elected on grounds of treason since they've overstepped their Constitutional authority long ago.

If some pussy-ass platoon of GIs want to muscle me out and terminate me, they better get the first shot and make it count. I guess whatever it take to earn their enlisted pay for the day.

Am I in the minority? Hell yes! But I'm still there. Granted, I'm all talk until it actually happens, but everyone is wrong about something until they're right.

[SlowLX]

I think you underestimate the true oath keepers in uniform. There are more than most think. I pity the ones that will stand in the way of the citizens doing what needs to be done to restore this country to the state it was originally intended.

Once the "Supreme Iowa Fighting Force" takes out citizens exercising their true patriotic duties, hell will follow... no lie.

I think you're underestimating how drawn to their CO's and small unit leaders the average 17-21 year old soldier is subconsciously. With out mass defections by the officer corps you won't see mass defections by the enlisted corps, because they will come down on them like an iron fist and most enlisted men who were wavering will revert back to a boot camp mentality to please their superiors without even realizing it.

You are also assuming the national guard would be called in to fire on their own US citizens first or the military for that matter. Think of all the crack pot militias over the years and how they've been neutralized, the FBI and federal law enforcement in general would be on any massive uprising like stink on shit before anything could get organized effectively.

So like I said, prove to me there is a logical and realistic way for your revolution to happen without mass defections from the upper units of the American military and government. If you try and stir up dissent in the military without being at least a full bird colonel your ass is going to Leavenworth no questions asked. The system is so entrenched into American society Denny, I honestly don't believe there is ANYTHING you or any of the other secessionists can do without help from a congressional split or Generals and Admirals splitting form the American government. Look at the last civil war even, it began with a congressional split. The American public is too fragmented and docile to do a fucking thing without proper motivation and support from their leaders. So if you're serious about wanting to create a second union or at least trash this system so bad it has to be reset my advice to you is to get elected and convince as many of your fellow congress members to follow you...take a few generals while you're at it. Because other wise if you try to do anything you'll just find your ass in jail.

[Grape]

atleast this thread proves who the drug addicts are

[Ruffdaddy]

This is why I think it'll have to be biological. Create a supervirus and cripple the country and you will make progress at fighting a guerilla war.

[Frank]

http://reason.com/blog/2011/05/16/marine-survives-two-tours-in-i

Marine Survives Two Tours in Iraq, SWAT Kills Him
Tim Cavanaugh | May 16, 2011

"Please send me an ambulance and you can ask more questions later, please!"

Guerena tells the dispatcher that her husband had returned home about 6:30 a.m. after work and was sleeping.

Prompted by the dispatcher, Guerena says her husband was shot in the stomach and hands.

The dispatcher asks Guerena to put her cheek next to her husband's nose and mouth to see if he's breathing, but she replies in Spanish that her husband is face- down.

The operator tells Guerena to grab a cloth and apply pressure to his wounds, but the wife responds frantically: "I can't! I can't! There's a bunch of people outside of my house. I don't know what the heck is happening!"

A dispatcher asks if the people outside are the SWAT members. "I think it's the SWAT, but they ... Oh my God!" Guerena says.

A dispatcher asks that she open the door for the SWAT, but Guerena replies that the door was already opened by police.

"Is anybody coming? Is anybody coming?" she asks.

The operator tells Guerena help is on the way, but they're still trying to figure out what happened.

"I don't know, that's it, whatever I told you, that's it," Guerena says.

Just after the five-minute mark, Guerena's end of the line goes silent.

The two dispatchers spend about four minutes talking to each other and calling out for Guerena while trying to figure out if the call is coming from the same residence where the warrant was served. At the end of the 10-minute 911 call, a dispatcher says she has confirmation that Guerena is outside with deputies on the scene.

This is from Arizona Daily Star reporter Fernanda Echavarri's effort to piece together the death of Jose Guerena, 26, at the hands of a Pima County, Arizona SWAT team. Guerena, who joined the Marines in 2002 and served two tours in Iraq, was killed just after 9 a.m. May 5. Guerera had just gone to bed after working a 12-hour shift at a local mine when his home was invaded as part of a multi-house crackdown by sheriff's deputies.

Like enemy of the state Osama bin Laden, Guerena died with his wife close by. Widow Vanessa Guerena, who hid with her four-year-old son when sheriff's deputies raided the home, fills in detail that has been slow to come from Pima County Sheriff Clarence W. Dupnik’s office:

"When I came out the officers dragged me through the kitchen and took me outside, and that's when I saw him laying there gasping for air," Vanessa Guerena said. "I kept begging the officers to call an ambulance that maybe he could make it and that my baby was still inside."

The little boy soon after walked out of the closet on his own. SWAT members took him outside to be with his mother.

"I never imagined I would lose him like that, he was badly injured but I never thought he could be killed by police after he served his country," Vanessa Guerena said.

The family's 5-year-old son was at school that morning and deputies say they thought Guerena's wife and his other child would also be gone when they entered the home.

Guerena says there were no drugs in their house.

Deputies said they seized a "large sum of money from another house" that morning. But they refused to say from which of the homes searched that morning they found narcotics, drug ledgers or drug paraphernalia. Court documents showing what was being sought and was found have not been made public. A computer check on Guerena revealed a couple of traffic tickets and no criminal history.

Tucson KGUN’s Joel Waldman says the SWAT team prevented paramedics from going to work on Guerena for one hour and fourteen minutes.

The sheriff’s department maintains that Guerena was holding an AR-15 when the paramilitary force fired 71 bullets in his home, but other key parts of the government story have collapsed. While PCSD initially claimed Guerena fired the weapon he was alleged to have been holding, the department now says it was a misfire by one of the deputies that caused this deadly group panic inside a home containing a woman and a toddler:

A deputy's bullet struck the side of the doorway, causing chips of wood to fall on his shield. That prompted some members of the team to think the deputy had been shot, [PCSD spokesman Michael] O'Connor said.

[Couver]

I'm willing to wager that out of all of the vets on this board no one has led a unit larger than 30-40 men.

I call what do I win?

[Denny]

You want to know some real reasons why America won it's independence? How about the fact that the local populace in Britain never really cared for the war in the first place? Or the fact that it took MONTHS to resupply their army not hours like it would take today. Or how about the only real reason we won was because of French aid and assistance? Or how about the differences in time frame that it takes to take a ragtag militia and turn them into an effective national army circa the 18th century compared to what would happen now? Especially with foreign aid and military advisers.

Now, do you wanna hear a little story about the southern fight for independence? Where the majority of the nations military men of the time deserted and revolted, yet they still got the shit kicked out of them because they had no way of sustaining their war or foreign support?

There is no way without at least partial assistance from major US military units or all out foreign assistance a revolution against the US military would last. I personally view the national guard with contempt the majority of the time due to their piss poor training when compared to the rest of the Army and Marines and I would still put faith in them to put down a 2nd American revolution by themselves if their opposition had no military support or leadership.

Let's use this board as a small example for instance: out of all the wanna be secessionists and vote from the rooftop guys that post on here and can be assumed to share similar view to others across the nation, how many of you have substantial military experience? 25%? That's with high estimates and I'm willing to wager that out of all of the vets on this board no one has led a unit larger than 30-40 men. That's being generous assuming some of the secessionists posters are just quite about their military service. I would trust a platoon of Iowa guardsmen equipped with antiquated weapons vs a company of the typical DFWMustangs secessionists with every modern weapon possible.

I think you underestimate the true oath keepers in uniform. There are more than most think. I pity the ones that will stand in the way of the citizens doing what needs to be done to restore this country to the state it was originally intended.

Once the "Supreme Iowa Fighting Force" takes out citizens exercising their true patriotic duties, hell will follow... no lie.