a ftp thread.

[dcs13]

No, we raised our weapon in response. However we couldn't fire unless fired upon. Hell, if fire came from a structure, you're no longer allowed to return fire. You have to leave. And you can't do night raids or kicking in doors without the permission of the local Imam and the villiage elders.

Well, I hope any of you boys back from the war that go into civilian law enforcement "adjust" to the rules here. Cause I'm gonna bet if you wait to be fired on stateside, you're a dead man...or you're a hell of a betting man that the banger shooting your way is a bad shot...

[Forever_frost]

Obviously it ended up being the wrong apartment. But your post says they should look at the "numbers"..They didn't know EXACTLY what door he went in. so NUMBERS had nothing to do with what transpired next. What should they do ? Say, aw shucks he got away, let's go eat donuts ?.. Or should they knock on doors until they find the bad guy or a witness that could lead them to the murder suspect ?
As for being shot, it was a BAD DEAL. MULTIPLE events ended with the officer shooting a person pointing a weapon at him. He "shouldn't: have been shot. Woulda, coulda, shoulda comes into play on both sides here. In the end, you won't find CRIMINAL negligence on the cops part.

So they opened fire on a guy in his apartment who answered the door with a pistol. That's not disputed. They failed to identify and they shot an innocent man. They should have knocked on doors and identified themselves. Call in more squads and keep an eye on the building. If someone answers the door with a weapon, you tell them to put it down and then handle it. You do not open fire on an innocent. Rule 1. The officers involved should face prison time.

Again, are you disputing that if this had gone down with me in the cop's shoes that I would be in jail right now?

[Forever_frost]

http://www.captainsjournal.com/category/rules-of-engagement/

Stories of troops waiting for air support and being prevented from firing unless they are shot at first have been rippling through the military for months. Many soldiers in the field complain that the Taliban is keenly aware of these rules and has become expert at firing on U.S. positions and then melting back into the civilian population..

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/afghanistan/100707/petraeus-review-rules-engagement

[dcs13]

If the guy wasn't in that apartment, it was the wrong door. Or is it still the right door if the guy isn't there? If someone's beating on my door at 1 am, I'm answering with a pistol. Should I be shot?

Obviously it ended up being the wrong apartment. But your post says they should look at the "numbers"..They didn't know EXACTLY what door he went in. so NUMBERS had nothing to do with what transpired next. What should they do ? Say, aw shucks he got away, let's go eat donuts ?.. Or should they knock on doors until they find the bad guy or a witness that could lead them to the murder suspect ?
As for being shot, it was a BAD DEAL. MULTIPLE events ended with the officer shooting a person pointing a weapon at him. He "shouldn't: have been shot. Woulda, coulda, shoulda comes into play on both sides here. In the end, you won't find CRIMINAL negligence on the cops part.

[Forever_frost]

So you're telling me you guys had to stand there or take cover when an insurgent pointed a weapon at you in Afganistan ?

No, we raised our weapon in response. However we couldn't fire unless fired upon. Hell, if fire came from a structure, you're no longer allowed to return fire. You have to leave. And you can't do night raids or kicking in doors without the permission of the local Imam and the villiage elders.

[dcs13]

Edit: You're the one who played the Afghanistan card. If you don't know about something, you probably shouldn't use it as an example. There's a reason I don't compare things to submarine reactors. I don't know dick about them

So you're telling me you guys had to stand there or take cover when an insurgent pointed a weapon at you in Afganistan ?

[Forever_frost]

Where in any of the articles does it say they got the WRONG door ? They lost sight of the suspect and didn't know exactly what door he went in. There are NO HOUSE NUMBERS TO CHECK because they didn't know where he was. They decided to knock on the likely doors in an attempt to locate him. I'm sure it was dark since it was in the middle of the night...One of the doors they knock on opens and a male points a gun at the officer...Again, BAD DEAL.
If they had kicked in the door at the wrong apartment , I would feel a little stronger here. BUT they didn't kick in a door, they knocked and it was opened...By a man pointing a gun at them...

If the guy wasn't in that apartment, it was the wrong door. Or is it still the right door if the guy isn't there? If someone's beating on my door at 1 am, I'm answering with a pistol. Should I be shot?

[dcs13]

No, I expect cops not to kill innocent people in their homes. I expect them to check house numbers, I expect them to identify themselves when they knock on a door. It's not a 'criminal case' because it was a cop doing it. If I beat on someone's door in the middle of the night looking for someone who isn't there and tehy answer the door with a gun and I kill them, I'm going to prison.

Where in any of the articles does it say they got the WRONG door ? They lost sight of the suspect and didn't know exactly what door he went in. There are NO HOUSE NUMBERS TO CHECK because they didn't know where he was. They decided to knock on the likely doors in an attempt to locate him. I'm sure it was dark since it was in the middle of the night...One of the doors they knock on opens and a male points a gun at the officer...Again, BAD DEAL.
If they had kicked in the door at the wrong apartment , I would feel a little stronger here. BUT they didn't kick in a door, they knocked and it was opened...By a man pointing a gun at them...

[Forever_frost]

So you expect the cop to wait until he is fired on before he can shoot ? Those aren't the rules of engagement for the US police. And I wouldn't expect it to change either.
Yes, the cops COULD have yelled police .I don't know that they didn't. The dead guy COULD have asked who's there. I don't know that he didn't. ...Neither APPARENTLY happened. Bad deal. Cop perceived a threat and reacted.
Did he act with criminal negligence by reacting to a person pointing a gun at him or was his use of force "justifiable" under Florida law? Because I doubt he knowingly and or intentionally shot the man for no reason. If you can't find CRIMINAL negligence, its not a criminal case... There's a civil case here, but I don't see a criminal case.

No, I expect cops not to kill innocent people in their homes. I expect them to check house numbers, I expect them to identify themselves when they knock on a door. It's not a 'criminal case' because it was a cop doing it. If I beat on someone's door in the middle of the night looking for someone who isn't there and tehy answer the door with a gun and I kill them, I'm going to prison.

Edit: You're the one who played the Afghanistan card. If you don't know about something, you probably shouldn't use it as an example. There's a reason I don't compare things to submarine reactors. I don't know dick about them

[dcs13]

Again, bad comparison. EVERYONE has an AK in Iraq and AFghanistan. As long as they don't pull the trigger you can't do a thing. We actually had one put one in my SSG's face and scream at him. When we took it away, the medics had to bandage teh dude's hand, we had to hand him his rifle back with the magazine and wish him a blessed day.

So you expect the cop to wait until he is fired on before he can shoot ? Those aren't the rules of engagement for the US police. And I wouldn't expect it to change either.
Yes, the cops COULD have yelled police .I don't know that they didn't. The dead guy COULD have asked who's there. I don't know that he didn't. ...Neither APPARENTLY happened. Bad deal. Cop perceived a threat and reacted.
Did he act with criminal negligence by reacting to a person pointing a gun at him or was his use of force "justifiable" under Florida law? Because I doubt he knowingly and or intentionally shot the man for no reason. If you can't find CRIMINAL negligence, its not a criminal case... There's a civil case here, but I don't see a criminal case.

[Broncojohnny]

Again, Alan, I point out you were wrong and you just dodge the subject.

Good job.

And you want to criticize me?

Exactly where did you point out that I was wrong? You have lied on this board multiple times. I would take the time to show you exactly where but you aren't worth the trouble, that is, my time is more valuable than indulging you in your obvious attempts at trolling.

[Forever_frost]

It's a BAD deal nine ways from sunday no doubt. They did not know what door the suspect went in . They were knocking trying to locate the MURDER suspect and had a male subject open a door and point a gun at them. They made a decision in less than a second.
I would bet its like going door to door in Afganistan looking for insurgents. They all look like the nice guys. A door opens, the guy has a gun, DECISION TIME...friend or foe. Wrong decision, you go home in a box, or you killed a friendly.

It's a BAD deal. The cops or military don't go out and say "dang I think I will kill some innocent person today"... There will be mistakes made when humans are involved.
We all get to sit back and monday morning quarterback this stuff, while those involved get less than 1 second...
Hell, even dirty Harry shot a friendly target in magnum force...

Again, bad comparison. EVERYONE has an AK in Iraq and AFghanistan. As long as they don't pull the trigger you can't do a thing. We actually had one put one in my SSG's face and scream at him. When we took it away, the medics had to bandage teh dude's hand, we had to hand him his rifle back with the magazine and wish him a blessed day.

Oh, and if I kill an innocent over there, I not only have UCMJ, but now it seems Obama himself demands things be done. I guarantee you insurgents are given more protections from us than we are from cops

[Forever_frost]

I was waiting for you to chime in again.

What a sorry excuse for a mod.

A real mod should remain impartial and unbiased, but when you join in stuff like this, you prove that you should not be trusted with power and authority.

Wait, just think if you were a cop! You'd be one of those power hungry - jack booted thugs that you say you hate. Imagine that.....

Are you saying you're holding a forum mod to a higher standard than you want us to hold you?

[Broncojohnny]

That's the response I expected from you. Instead of proving your point, just make a deflecting comment. You're such an e-punk. You are a perfect match for Eric.

You being against deflecting is like a christian being against Christ.

Again...OR WHAT? As in....YOU WILL DO WHAT?

You'll do absolutely nothing but keep coming back for more.

[Forever_frost]

You just won't understand. Say you were back in Iraq clearing a building and someone ran out at you with a gun. I guess you would do nothing? Don't you see how idiotic your view is? Just because this didn't happen in Iraq does not change the rules. If someone points a gun at you.......


fuck it... Nevermind.....


\

That's the response I expected from you. Instead of proving your point, just make a deflecting comment. You're such an e-punk. You are a perfect match for Eric.



And I have. But people just like you don't get it, or refuse to get it. There have been plenty of instances here and Canada where I flat out said the cop fucked up. Like the subway shooting in California where the cop "thought" he was going to Taze the guy and used his gun.

But nooooooooooooooooo, nobody wants to acknowledge that. They want to live in the "Let's gang up on and crucify the LEO for having an opinion"
What happened to respecting someone for an opinion, even if it doesn't agree with yours?



Eric has always been and will always be a disgruntled, angry e-warrior. He never played contact sports, he never served his country, and he has chosen a desk job. Wow, now that's a fighter for you.....

Sometimes I shake my head in disbelief that I fought a foreign war for my country to protect cowards like Eric so he can go online and bully people.

Is that why people serve? To protect gutless pukes like Eric and Alan?



You are a legend in your own mind.

You evidently have no idea what we did in Iraq. I wasn't allowed to fire until I was fired upon. By ROE. Which is why my weapon didn't fire a single round UNTIL I got shot in the head.